There is no absolute standard for morality!
Nothing is absolutely right or wrong!
…except for religious indoctrination which is ALWAYS wrong.
That’s what the moral relativists tell me anyway.
No kidding!
“But there really is an important difference between including your children in harmless traditions, and forcing on them un-evidenced opinions about the nature of life or the cosmos. Tradition is fine where it amounts to songs or literature, styles of dress or architecture. But tradition is a terrible basis for ethics, or beliefs about the origin of the universe or the evolution of life.” – Richard Dawkins (Professional Atheist)
Yowza!
I don’t want to give kids my unevidenced opinions about the origins of the universe!
But, should I give them Richard Dawkins’ unevidenced opinions?
Probably best to just recite non-religious terms…
…and let them evolve their own version of reality.
34 Responses
Just my opinion here, but the Holy scriptures don’t actually teach that it is always wrong to tell an untruth.
It is always wrong to “bear false witness.” Difference being that bearing false witness is deliberately telling an untruth which is meant to harm another person, or to benefit oneself at the expense of someone else. Malicious intent is required.
And this isn’t remotely what indoctrination looks like. XD
I usually scroll all the way through a post before I read it, just to see how long it was. I got a little worried about what the video looked like. But if you are someone like me, don’t worry. Just a man teaching kids about the truth of the universe, and not forcing his beliefs upon them!
Mrsmcmommy,
http://rzim.org/let-my-people-think-broadcasts/the-loss-of-truth-part-1-of-2/
http://rzim.org/let-my-people-think-broadcasts/the-loss-of-truth-part-2-of-2/
Especially in the first one.
The part after about 19 mins in the 2nd should sound familiar to an issue from prior blogs.
Dave
Thanks! I was just over there and didn’t realize he had MULTIPLE Podcasts! lol.
This helps. 🙂
Mrsmcmommy,
I live but to serve! Heh.
I wonder if what would happen if Ravi stumbled upon this blog. It would be fun to see him bantering with some of the characters here.
Of course, then I would likely need to keep a Google search window open to see the background on some of the philosophers and folks he brings up.
Dave
In all seriousness, bantering with this PARTICULAR breed of characters is beneath him.
Ark? KIA? lol.
They get stuck with the self-proclaimed simpleton and the self-proclaimed fundamentalist and the self-proclaimed housewife-from-a-hick-town, because the Ravis of the world won’t give them the time of day. 🙂
Was it absolutely wrong to lie to the Nazis about having Jews hidden in your home?
Hey, Ron.
I don’t know whether you’ll understand this better than Violet does. But here it goes anyway:
Objective doesn’t necessarily mean “clear” or easy for humans to understand.
Objective doesn’t necessarily mean that we know exactly what to do in every situation.
And, most importantly, objective doesn’t mean that the exact same outward action will be right/wrong in every situation.
The objective moral standard is God–judging your heart to see if you’re being self-focused or others-focused.
So, since it’s about the motivation of a human’s heart, it isn’t about a list of Dos and Do Nots, like many children and Atheists think.
I hope that helps. 🙂
mrsmcmommy,
By definition:
1. Absolute means total (i.e., without exception).
2. Relative means in comparison or relation to something else.
3. Objective means not influenced by personal feelings or opinions. William Lane Craig defines it thus:
4. Subjective means influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.
So by necessity moral standards are either:
– relative or absolute; and
– objective or subjective.
Your response indicates that you subscribe to a relative-objective moral standard, which is fine. But how do you establish between what’s objective and what’s subjective under WLC’s definition? To clarify: if the Nazis had indeed won WWII and exterminated everybody who disagreed with them or brainwashed them into thinking the holocaust was good, how would anyone ever determine that it was objectively wrong?
Are you asking me for my personal opinion?
I already explained that humans (like me) don’t always know how to act in every situation. And sometimes we get it wrong.
But the fact that we can get things wrong is precisely because there is an objective standard that goes beyond society–because humans don’t invent moral truth…we discover it.
Morality is not majority rules.
Even if everyone in the world believed the holocaust was good, they would still be wrong. (Your question of how they’d know they were wrong isn’t possible for me to answer. I guess God would need to intervene somehow, as he has done over and over throughout history, by helping people discover moral truth through various religions.)
What do YOU think, Junior?
Mr. Branyon,
I think that lying to thwart someone from committing theft or harm towards others is not only morally permissible and justified, but morally imperative. What’s your stance?
Yep.
We agree.
The next question is, are we correct?
If this is just our opinion then the Nazis aren’t really breaking any moral laws. They are merely disagreeing with us.
A lot of people agree with you Ron, not me but a lot do.
Now, here’s a few questions.
Suppose a person was hiding Jews in his house when Nazis came to call. What if he thought saying nothing and letting the Nazis search in the hope that the Jews were hidden well enough was the best thing he could do?
What if he thought lying wouldn’t do any good because he knew the Nazis wouldn’t just take him at his word and go away without searching the house anyway so he told them the Jews were there to spare his own life and the life of his family?
See what happens when you get rid of objectivity?
Also, read your comment, “I think lying to thwart…” again. If someone reading that didn’t somehow know lying was morally wrong, the comment wouldn’t even make sense.
James
The act of lying is your own sin, for which you would be culpable, but the act of murder is the sin of the other person, for which you would not be culpable. Each human person is bound by the eternal moral law to avoid sin. And neither is it justifiable for you to commit a lesser sin, so that someone else will not commit a greater sin. [Saint Augustine, On Lying, n. 13.]
I hope Junior appreciates you (and Augustine) doing his thinking for him.
The question that occurred to me was, “Is it always right to hide Jews in your basement in the first place?”
I hope he appreciates it too but I doubt he will because the answer is too simple and too obvious when what people ask it seem to want is a convoluted mess of an answer so they can work in subjective morality.
The questioned has been answered so many times for so long it’s hard to believe it still gets asked.
I would like to ponder the question, “Is it always right to hide Jews from Nazis?”
‘Hiding’ is essentially lying in that you are leading the Nazis to a false conclusion. This ‘lie’ is necessary to prevent the Jews in your basement from being killed. Do you think there is a moral dilemma here?
I think, rather than hiding people, I would hand them some guns, and all of us would defend ourselves…
🙂
(*I meant that as a joke* *But, now I’m actually considering this…*)
Where you getting the guns? The holocaust didn’t happen in Texas.
Yeah, I’m just saying, NOW… 😉
#AmericanMade
The moral teaching of Scripture and the Church is clear. Lying is intrinsically evil and therefore always immoral.
The “hiding Jews from Nazis” scenario is only mentioned as an attempt to get Christians to move off point. Once we are off point we can no longer say morality is objective.
Ron might not even be aware of what he’s doing but he’s using a logical trick. Don’t fall for it.
Come on, James! Let’s try to teach Junior something even though he isn’t interested in learning. 🙂
Junior is asking for a ‘list of objective moral behaviors’. He wants a comprehensive list of specific behaviors that apply across the board in all circumstances. When we do not produce this list, he concludes that morality is not objective.
Objective morality requires the existence of God. God is the the judge. No behavior is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ until God makes His judgment. God built a little sense of His judgment into us (conscience). It is far better than a mere ‘list’ of behaviors. The rules are written on our hearts so they adapt to circumstances.
What’cha think?
John,
The list he desires he already has in his head. The, as you mentioned, conscience tells people what they ought not do.
What he wants, I think, is for Christians to wiggle out of these oughts so he can say they aren’t objective at all.
Is stealing, for example, wrong? Of course, no one would argue it isn’t. It’s when we throw in scenarios like starving kids, need money for life and saving medicine, etc. where it gets confusing. If my kids were starving and I stole food so they wouldn’t die I did a noble thing in the eyes of man but I still committed a sin in the process so my actions did nothing to alter absolutes in the least.
The Isaiah 53:5 Project,
Thanks for your response. Do you agree with Saint Augustine’s opinion? Would you actually have told the truth knowing that doing so condemned innocent people to certain death?
What I would have done does nothing to change the fact that lying is morally wrong 100 percent of the time.
Even Collin can’t say “Everything is relative” with a straight face. 😊
John,
That was a great impression of a professor at the average liberal college teaching his students Freshman year.
Dave
Jeremiah 9:5 (ESV) – Everyone deceives his neighbor, and no one speaks the truth; they have taught their tongue to speak lies; they weary themselves committing iniquity.
Oh, he’ll be WAY ahead of the curve! While the rest of his peers are battling acne and new hair-growth, Collin will be having his first Nihilistic break down. 🙂
Mrsmcmommy,
Funny thing. I was just listening to Ravi Zacharias’s podcast (after I had enjoyed to guys, of course), and he was going through the breakdown. That guy amazes me. So intelligent, yet so down to earth and funny. I wanna be like him when I grow up.
Dave
Acts 26:24 (ESV) – And as he was saying these things in his defense, Festus said with a loud voice, “Paul, you are out of your mind; your great learning is driving you out of your mind.”
I like Ravi, too. I might try to find that episode… 🙂
If he remembers those lines, that’ll make for an interesting Sunday School class.
😂