Leopard slugs.
What do they think of human beings?
They must think about us.
I mean, they crawl through our garbage cans.
Surely they know those garbage cans are intelligently designed.
Slugs aren’t idiots!
I’m doubtful slugs could make a close guess about how people think.
Our ways are higher than slug ways.
Our thoughts are higher than slug thoughts.
I think about slugs thinking about me when I think about God.
My finite, feeble mind attempting to understand infinity.
I would be flattered to learn that slugs think about me.
And apparently, God values me much more than I value slugs.
So… I don’t believe it bothers God when I try to figure out what He’s like.
It would appear that God does not change his mind.
God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind. – Numbers 23:19God, who is enthroned from of old, who does not change — he will hear them and humble them, because they have no fear of God. – Psalm 55:19
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. – James 1:17
So what about this?!!!!??
Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.” – Genesis 18
The Lord needed to go down and see how bad things were?
God didn’t already know what was going on?
But then it gets WORSE…
Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.” – Also Genesis 18
Abraham talked God into CHANGING HIS MIND!
So what is the only conclusion we come to?
There is no God.
Actually, there is another conclusion.
Maybe, God doesn’t change but people do.
Maybe, God allows us to affect His decisions.
Maybe, God lets us surprise Him.
(Have you ever allowed your children to surprise you?)
To Moses, God did introduce himself, “I WILL BE WHO I WILL BE”
There’s a little bit of latitude in that title.
Plus, God doesn’t travel through time one day at a time.
He doesn’t need to change his mind when all time is open before Him like a book.
That’s as close as I can come to answering the question, “Does God change his mind?”
If I’m wrong, I don’t think God will get mad.
He likes me much more than slugs.
60 Responses
The story of King Hezekiah is also another example where God changed His mind.
Hezekiah became very sick. Isaiah told him to set things in order and prepare to die [God said He’d die and not recover] (2 Kings 20:1). But Hezekiah prayed, beseeching God to be merciful and to remember all the good he had done. Before Isaiah had even left the king’s house, God told Isaiah to tell Hezekiah that his prayer had been heard and that his life would be extended fifteen years.
God certainly deserves all the credit for working all things for good, even as humans choose to go their own way, time after time after time…
If Esther had CHOSEN to walk a different path, then we wouldn’t have heard about her. (Maybe there was another woman in the harem who was also offered the choice, and refused? Who’s to say?)
Wouldn’t it be interesting if, instead of the Book of Esther, we had the Book of Suzy or Book of Jane? 🙂
mrsmcmommy,
Then the question comes to mind, “Can humans thwart the plans of God?” Has Esther not done what she did, then God’s will was not done. Or what if Suzy, Jane, Rita, Bertha, Sally-Jane, and every other woman declined?
Do we actually have the power to prevent the plans of God? Did God, pre-creation, create hypothetical folks in His mind to see what they would do and regroup and try again in His mind until He got it right?
It would seem that this would make humans sovereign, and not God. That God *can’t* act, unless we do something limits the Unlimitable One, as I see it. It is almost like God is checking with a committee before He can proceed with His plan.
I see the Almighty as… well… almighty. He is working out His good and perfect plan using fallen and imperfect people who He empowers to do the job. Frankly, it is sometimes unwillingly. I have no issue with that, as I am in full trust of God’s perfect holiness and goodness. Some Scriptures, if I may.
WARNING – SCRIPTURE WALL OF TEXT FOLLOWS. 😉
Isaiah 46:9-10 (ESV)
9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
Daniel 4:35 (ESV)
35 all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What have you done?”
Isaiah 64:8 (ESV)
8 But now, O Lord, you are our Father;
we are the clay, and you are our potter;
we are all the work of your hand.
Jeremiah 1:4-5 (ESV)
4 Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Proverbs 16:9 (ESV)
9 The heart of man plans his way,
but the Lord establishes his steps.
Proverbs 16:33 (ESV)
33 The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the Lord.
Jeremiah 10:23 (ESV)
23 I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself,
that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.
I found this video from John MacArthur that hits on the subject, and I bet we will find some agreement in it.
Dave
I hear you. It has been confounding Christians for years! 🙂
But, if God’s will is to allow us to change the details of certain plans, then His plan was never thwarted… 🙂
I’m not sure that God wills a particular woman to do a particular thing. But, if instead, his will is to offer that choice to as many women as it takes to find a willing one (and to allow himself to be surprised by whether or not they cooperate), then that has been His ultimate plan all along.
At least, that’s how I see it.
On a break here. I don’t think we thwart God’s plans, per se.
I think all plans fall under the umbrella of God’s glory- which will be made known, either through our obedience or disobedience. Luke 19:40 tells us that if we do not praise Him, the rocks will cry out. I believe God always has a plan, whether we are in it or not is up to us.
I believe God has a will for our lives, no doubt. And that will is for His glory. I also believe that it is His will that we all obey him. But I also believe that we can choose to not obey Him. I do believe that if we do not use what the Lord has bestowed upon us, eventually, God will use somebody else for the job.
I always wondered if Jesus was hinting at the “realm of possibilities” when He prayed at Gethsemane before His crucifixion. Not that His people wouldn’t be delivered, but if there was another way to deliver His people without Christ’s crucifixion. (Not going to speculate what those would be, because I don’t want to come across as lowering the significance Christ’s crucifixion, burial, and resurrection).
Matthew,
I agree that we can choose to not obey God’s will. If not, we could not sin. But when God moves according to His plan, the object He chooses to use in His plan will never fail to carry it out. These are hard things to think along, as the Lord has not revealed the inner workings of His mind. He uses reluctant prophets on one hand, and on the other, we fail to do things we ought to by our own will. Scripture seems to be absent of any examples of folks God chooses to send who fail to do it in the end. God builds the vessels He chooses to act through from before birth. And none of those purely human agents were sinless. I think there is a difference between us falling short and God going with a “Plan B”. God equips those He chooses to send. We always get God’s “A-Team”.
During Jesus’ prayer, we see in His humanity the dreading of receiving the cup of God’s wrath. His death was not what He feared, as He knew He would rise again as He told His disciples. There in the Cross, Christ would take upon Himself the wrath that we deserved. We might think that we would gladly do that to save other people, especially in light of resurrection. But we do not understand what taking on God’s wrath means. At least I admit I do not understand the horror of the experience.
Jesus knew the Cross was the only way. He prepared the disciples for His death. The plan was laid out before the foundations of the earth. There was no other way, or the Father would have granted it. Actually, He would have made a different plan in the first place, and we may have never heard of the Cross.
These things are beyond what we can comprehend. I am grasping at mere baby thoughts and ideas to even try to come close to what might have happened in the garden. Just Jesus’ agony was so life threatening that an angel came to give Him the physical strength to continue.
We may differ on how we see the outworking of God’s plan, but I am filled with joy to be able to debate these deep things as we have, devoid of rancor and slander. When fellow believers debate the deep things of Scripture in a God-honoring way, we can know He is pleased with our conduct and our yearning to understand.
You guys all rock.
Dave
Isaiah 28:9-10 (ESV)
9 “To whom will he teach knowledge,
and to whom will he explain the message?
Those who are weaned from the milk,
those taken from the breast?
10 For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
line upon line, line upon line,
here a little, there a little.”
I have no qualms with being called to obedience. I guess where I have troubles conceptually, is the flip-side of the coin. I have problems thinking that people’s disobedience are by God’s fore-known design ( not the implementation of free-will, but specifically how we disobey Him, and who will do it)- that God calls some of us, specifically, to disobey Him.
Now, I know there are the occasions of God’s hardening of hearts, or giving them over to sin, but in those cases, I believe that they were already willfully disobedient, so God used their disobedience for His good. Basically a “Fine, if you want to disobey me, I can still use that.” Whether they know it or not, they are being used in God’s story, but I don’t believe God wants specific people to disobey Him.
For instance, God begs Cain to not murder Abel. I believe God could have had great plans for Cain. But that was not the case.
Also, along with that, God could have had great plans for Abel ( maybe Jesus was going to fall under Abel’s line instead of Seth’s, who knows?) but that was not the case.
I believe God is patient with all of us, seeing if we will accept what has been made clearly known to us- before He specifies what role He has for us.
Oh, my gosh, so the book I have on my shelf is a forgery?
Sounds about par for the course, then for so much of Christian text.
I just opened the book at random and picked out this sentence:”The books now mentioned are history,”
Go on , smart arse…. which book of Augustine is that likely from.
Oh, and you might struggle with Google on this one as I checked …
Have fun you grubby little hypocrite.
Uh, …and gunslinger? …. I suppose there is a certain inevitability that you would eventually be afraid of reading truth and circle the wagons.
*Sigh*
Will I recover?
Perhaps if you re-familiarized yourself with Augustine it might help you understand the concept a little better, amanda? You have read him I presume? You have a copy of his work at least, yes?
After all, it was apparently based upon the view of Saul/Paul of Tarsus, and he firmly believed Adam and Eve were real characters and the original progenitors of the human race. And why shouldn’t he believe this? After all he was a devout and likely indoctrinated Jew. He can hardly be faulted for such a view. But now we know better. Or at least we should do. Isn’t that right?
If you struggle with the HGP, and Collins view then simply go research.
And there were numerous others working on the project and I’m sure they were also qualified to respond, as are a great many scientists who are familiar with this branch of science.
The subject of Original Sin has become almost impossible to defend in light of paleontology, and , of course the findings of the Human Genome Project.
So;JB is correct.
Original Sin does not exist.
Love hearing both sides of the predestination argument. Whilst I tend toward John’s interpretation, I agree with Wally that we inherited a sinful nature, but God does not impute our sin towards us until we reach the “age of reason”, for by the law is the knowledge of sin, and unless you understand you have transgressed, you can’t have it imputed to you.
I have heard the argument of total depravity in that we are incapable of choosing good, however I believe it is inconsistent with the fact the tree was of “the knowledge of good and evil”. It wasn’t just the tree of the knowledge of EVIL. So it stands to reason that we can still choose “good”—which would be the choice to accept Christ’s sacrifice and His righteousness—because if we have no choice in whether we receive eternal life, then it is not free will.
I agree with John that this doesn’t affect God’s sovereignty at all. He still knows who will and won’t be saved, but it doesn’t change the fact that the option of salvation is extended to every soul. If something is truly a gift, we have the right to reject it.
Jasmine,
Interesting points.
A few questions for you and all:
What would you define God’s sovereignty as?
How do we define “free will”?
and… Where do we get the concept of free will from in Scripture?
I am truly curious as to what folks think.
Dave
(Who prays he is not seen as a contrarian know-it-all)
Difficult to define a word that I actually can’t even find in the KJV, but I guess the way I would define it would be, “supreme power and authority; i.e., king”. Which doesn’t assume supreme control over everything.
“Free will” I would assume to mean the ability to choose whatever one will without another’s interference. I think free will (or I would prefer, ability to choose) is evident in the garden. To say free will was not part of Eve’s choice to take the fruit is to say God planned and ordained the fall. I see no evidence of that being a part of God’s original plan for mankind. That’s my short opinion, anyhow.
Jasmine,
I like the definition of supreme power and authority. It means there is no greater authority at all.
That is a good definition of free will, in my humble opinion. That is why I see the results of the fall resulting in us not having free will anymore. Adam and Eve had free will, yet God knew they would sin. He did not cause it, but it was not a surprise to Him.
Luther wrote the book “The Bondage of the Will”. If you have the time and inclination, you may want to check out selected quotes collected on a web site that hits the main points.
https://www.monergism.com/blog/key-quotes-luthers-bondage-will
I am curious of your thoughts.
Dave
Actually, I don’t think God’s sovereignty is dependent on His omniscience. I don’t believe God necessarily knows the future when it comes to the details of individual lives. God’s sovereignty remains even if He doesn’t know whether or not I am going to choose to follow Him.
Scripture already suggests that God limits His knowledge. When we ask to be forgiven, God ‘remembers our sin no more’. He forgets it. So there is history that God chooses to delete from his memory. My concept of ‘omniscience’ means God knows everything that He chooses to know. He is powerful enough to control his thoughts! We don’t have the power of selective memory which is sometimes why we still carry guilt after repentence.
Agreed, and to be honest you’re probably the second person I’ve ever heard say it. Yes, God does govern what He chooses to know, and how He exercises His omniscience (something I was hinting at with the Jer. 19:5 reference). It’s not that God does not know everything, but He does choose what to dwell on, similar to what He expects of us. I think sometimes we forget that God is a God of hope, and He chooses to call Himself by the present, “I Am”. I believes He views everyone through the lens of hope: hope that all will come to repentance, hope that all will receive His love, and even though He knows there will be those who perish, He is Love, and Love always trusts, always hopes.
I respect the ‘predestination crowd’ for taking great pains to give God credit for everything. They are quite clear that God does as He pleases and man is powerless against His will. I do not have an argument with that concept.
But we all agree that mankind has limited thinking abilities. The moment we try to understand God, we reduce Him to terms we can understand. We limit God just by thinking about Him. I don’t believe God holds it against us not knowing what we cannot know. There are plenty of things we DO know to keep us busy for a lifetime.
Just curious John about your statement God might not know the future if every human
How would you square that with the clear teaching of His omniscience?
That’s one of those aspects of His character that would seem immutable
I can’t ‘square it’ to my own satisfaction. But I will elaborate. 🙂
I’m ‘evolving'(ha!) to believe that God created people because He enjoys mystery and adventure.
God made me because He literally wants to get to know me. But He will not force Himself into my life. I have the power to shut Him out. Again, this is a power that God allows.
I’m sort of like a wrapped gift. God will not unwrap me unless I allow Him to. The unwrapping process takes a lifetime. And I believe God savors every moment. When I am ‘good’, He is pleased. When I am ‘bad’, He is disappointed. God has decided NOT to tear open the package. He has limited Himself so that He can be with me when I discover things. He is right there in the midst of the drama of my life. He is not ‘reading ahead’ to see how the book ends.
Interesting
Not sure what I think about that
John,
If we have the power to shut God out and thwart His plans, then would God need a “plan B” if Abraham had told God he was not leaving his land to go somewhere else? Would He have needed to try Aaron if Moses said “no”. Hmm. Moses actually did say no, but God did not let him get out of it. Moses came up with excuses, but in the end, God displayed some anger at Moses’ refusal and told him “you *will* go.”
And we have Jonah, who was made to go to Nineveh.
But the clearest example was Paul (then Saul), who was on his way to persecute the church when God knocked him off his horse.God changed him inwardly right there. We get a hint at what God is up to when He speaks to Ananias to go find Paul and help him. (not the bad Ananias… he was already dead) Ananias told God that he was scared of Paul, and even tried to remind God how bad of a guy Paul was. Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”
It seems that God does indeed invade upon those innermost parts of our will. You could easily say that He overwhelms our will with His love.
I agree that we are mere mortals trying to grasp the “why” and “how” of One who is so far above us in His mind that when we get to Heaven, we will all be “Oh. I think I get it, now.” And we will certainly not be disappointed in God’s ways.
The unwrapping of the gift is interesting, but (I know, I know… self-proclaimed fundamentalist and all that) I do not see Scripture teaching that.
I do think that God knows the details of everything we do long before we do it. And yet He still saves us. I come to that conclusion based on Romans 9.
Romans 9:10-15 (ESV)
10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
That sounds like a very harsh proclamation from God. Paul even anticipates the response in verses 14-15. But the bottom line I have come to is that this is God’s universe, and He will do as He wills. But He is also good and perfect, so I trust that however He does it all, t is good and perfect and right and holy and just and merciful and… God-ish.
Dave
(who was not always a predestinarian, but became one as an adults after some research… I was offended by the concept when I first heard it)
I think the story of Abraham is loaded with ‘Plan B’ instances. Ishmael was the result of Abraham not trusting God to make good on His promise.
I’m curious about how you would interpret the exchange in Esther 4:
“12 And they told Mordecai what Esther had said. 13 Then Mordecai told them to reply to Esther, “Do not think to yourself that in the king’s palace you will escape any more than all the other Jews. 14 For if you keep silent at this time, relief and deliverance will rise for the Jews from another place, but you and your father’s house will perish. And who knows whether you have not come to the kingdom for such a time as this?”
John,
Your wrote:
“The moment we try to understand God, we reduce Him to terms we can understand. We limit God just by thinking about Him. I don’t believe God holds it against us not knowing what we cannot know. There are plenty of things we DO know to keep us busy for a lifetime.”
And I agree with that fully.
Dave
John,
The “plan b” was always humans trying to come up with plans because of their lack of faith in God. They may have come up with a “plan b”, but God is always working out his “plan alpha and omega”. Abraham with Ishmael is a great example. Abraham and Sarah came up with a plan, even after God said that Sarah would have a child. God already had decided that aging Sarah would be the one, so the Ishamel plan was a fail from the start. And God took care of Ishmael and his mother, even so.
Moses came up with excuse after excuse, but God was not swayed. Moses complained that he was not a good speaker. So God said that Aaron would be sent with him do the talking. But Moses ended up doing the talking, just as God had said. God came up with the plan, then He empowered those He sent with what they needed to do the job.
As to the Esther passage, again, we are seeing humans coming up with plans. Mordecai says “and who knows”, and that is from a human perspective. God knew, and by its inclusion in Scripture, we also know, that this was God’s plan. He did raise up Esther for that time. There was no coincidence or lucky break. The Lord put the person He wanted in the right place at the right time to do the right thing. And he gave her the ability to get the job done.
The Jews celebrate Purim to commemorate God’s salvation of the Jewish people through Esther’s bold act. In my family, my grandmother made hamentashen (roughly translated “Haman’s pockets or pouches”) when I was a kid because of this. The Jews considered this a miracle of God. God is praised, rather than Esther.
Which probably is even more of a reason to look at God’s “plan A” being the intentional all along with Abraham, Moses, Esther, and the rest. We praise God for these events, not the people who did them. Without God’s impelling and empowering, we would all run like Jonah from everything He wants us to do that is even slightly outside our comfort zone or personal desires. And even if we run, God will send the great fish to get us back where He wants us to be to do the job He has set before us.
Dave
I’m not suggesting that people deserve credit for the work they do. Neither am I disputing that God empowers people to do his will.
Mordecai suggests that if Esther refuses to plea for the lives of the Jews, then ‘help will come from somewhere else’. That seems to me like God is giving Esther a choice. She is deciding whether or not God will implement His ‘plan B’.
Although Dave makes a great biblically-based argument, I still agree with John here.
I also think the new heaven and the new earth is God’s “plan B” for a completely and willingly obedient humanity. The earth we are living in is the flawed ( by us, not God of course, plan A).
God always desired our complete obedience. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, Jesus was the only one that could fulfill that role.
So in a way, Jesus was the “Plan B” of Adam as well. He became the person to show us how to live.
Of course, it could be argued that the “new heaven and the new earth” and Jesus were always the plan A. I guess that’s the topic of this discussion.
However, let’s look at the Parable of the Talents ( Matthew 25 and Luke 19).
The objective was for the talent to be multiplied. The first two servants were willing to do that- the third was not.
Because the third failed, his talent was given to the first servant.
The first servant ( it is implied) would then go on to multiply that coin. The first servant was the Master’s “plan B”. So no matter what, the coin was going to be multiplied. But it was the servants’ obedience ( or disobedience that decided it.
I believe God calls us all to do the same thing ( albeit different methods) and ultimately, He will use those who are willing to fulfill His purpose.
Adam failed, Jesus came.
This earth is cursed, a new earth is coming.
@Matthew
Great thoughts, I agree. I can see why people would have trouble with the idea of ‘plan B’ though, because it makes it look like God’s will is contingent on the behaviour of mortals. Having said that though, God has a track record of desiring to work through and work with humanity to achieve His purposes. Elsewise, why would we be called the hands and feet of Jesus, and why did Jesus commission the church to accomplish His will on earth?
I see it more that God only ever has a plan A, and we have a choice as to whether we want to be a part of it. Before creation, I imagine the Father and Son having this conversation:
Jesus: you know that they will fail, don’t you?
Father: yes, I know.
Jesus: they’ll need someone to save them.
Father: yes they will. But they’ll be worth it.
Jesus: yes, they’re definitely worth it. That’s why I’ll go.
Father: we’ll save them together. It’ll be a challenge, but in the end, we will win.
Jasmine, I think the “why” and “what” of God’s plan will always get done. We decide the “who”. And together, that decides the “how”, “when” and the rest.
It’s my time-bound thinking that makes it hard to describe “plans” in any way other than chronologically.
I often think that if Adam and Eve wouldn’t have sinned, they would have been the example that Jesus was for us. ( It’s the whole nature vs nurture debate again!).
I will not claim to know God’s plan, but I am willing to be a part of it.
Ah, now this is the comment section that I love to see. Love listening to these discussions ( or reading, in this case) between my brothers and sisters in Christ.
I’m afraid John Branyan has already taken the words out of my mouth on this one, but I think Dave had that figured out already.
Oh, but a random, unrelated discussion that I’d love to see some time ( no idea how it’d come up though lol) is amillennialism or premillennialism. Of course, I have no idea what side of the aisle people are on here.
As of now, I’m a “pan-millennialist”. Don’t know how it’ll happen, but I know it’ll all “pan out” at the end 😉 Although, the denomination that I’ve been in all of my life is amillennial.
In either case, I’m longing for the day when we can all fellowship together for eternity in the presence of our Heavenly Father. But for now, these conversations ( and the ones outside of the internet) will have to do.
Anyways, these rare moments are great. People from different denominations showing unity and diversity. The true “university” being exemplified.
Matthew,
That would be great!
I am a “pan-millenialist” myself these days. I was raised pre-trib, pre-mil, but have read so many things on a-mil that I find myself not educated enough to make too form of a stand.
My current theory is that just like Jesus’ first coming, His return will not be quite what people expect in its working out. It will perfectly fulfill Scripture, of that I can be sure.
Dave
HI John
I am slow to the the party as it is 300 am here in Tiberias on the shore of the Sea of Galilee. Only the jet lag that has me awake means I am awake like the people in my real world.
I like this a lot. Mostly I like your honest, “I’m not sure” approach to this, We can’t fully understand it, and anybody who claims to is a liar. I like to say that if I understood God fully, then He would be like me. Frankly, I could never worship somebody like me, as I am monstrously flawed, as we all are huh?
@ Jasmine. I really liked what you said about God changing his actions does not change His character. He can even change the way he deals with a certain person over time, even though his expectations have never changed.
@Dave. I suppose we don’t fully agree on the nature of predestination, as I tend to go with John’s view that, of course we could never respond unless called, but that we are all called. On the other hand, I agree fully that is is not just our actions which made us sinners, but our very nature. Sinners by both nature and choice.
@John I think what you said about not being sinners really until we understand the nature of it makes a point sort of. I would say we are sinners from the minute we exit the womb, but are not necessarily held to eternal account for it until we understand the nature of it. What I hear in our work as “an age of accountability.”
Fascinating discussion, and nice to have without the childish distractions we usually face. Although if we gather in a group, talk, and even disagree…and nobody is burned at the stake I fear we will really disappoint some of your friends.
Yeah, I’ve heard the “age of accountability” before. I think the best example ( maybe the only Biblical example of that?) is the child of David and Bathsheba that died in 2 Samuel 12.
” 23 But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”
Wally,
What I have come to understand is that all are called, but few are chosen.
There are two “calls” to look at. There is the one that we all get, via the evidence in nature, and from the preaching of the Gospel. That is an external call, and is rejected by most, obviously.
Then there is the inward, effectual call of the Holy Spirit, which always results in regeneration. Like I said earlier, “turning on the lights”.
When the Lord Jesus says, “he who has an ear, let him hear,” he means it. Likewise, when Jesus speaks of the parables being missed by most, but understandable to the disciples, it is because they have been given ears to hear.
Interesting discussion, I say again.
Dave
John 6:37 (ESV) – All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 6:44-46 (ESV)
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.
John 6:63-66 (ESV)
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
Good morning Dave
It must be late there because it is early here in the Holy Land
You make some good points and i concede there is good evidence to support what you say. I am pretty sure that goes both ways
There are just questions that i cant resolve totally most of which John mentioned
Id love to talk more but will be following the footsteps of our Lord most of today
So i apologize for my briefness
John,
The sticky part in trying to mine the depths of God is that we are but finite beings. The way God thinks and acts is so far beyond our understanding that He “lisps” at us with a kind of baby talk so we can even try to fathom what He is getting at in Scripture.
http://www.cityofgodblog.com/2008/04/calvin-and-baby-talk/#sthash.uYYCDMmT.dpbs
http://www.theopedia.com/divine-accommodation
When God reveals things to us, He uses human language and symbols that our limited understanding can grasp. When Jesus revealed the ways of God’s mind to the disciples even a little, they were blown away, even calling some things “impossible”. Which they were… if God was a mere mortal human.
When the Lord said He was going down to see for Himself, to whom was He speaking? Looks like the angels with Him, in context. But then, He did not actually physically accompany them after that. The number went from three to two.
It looks like God sent the angels to town to display to them (and to us, more importantly) just how bad these people were. Good sent His own angels down to them, and they wanted to do some not very nice things to them.
God displayed to Abraham, and by extension to us, why He was judging the cities. I look at this more like a parent giving a reason instead of a “because I said so” than God being unsure about what was really going on down there.
Same goes for Abraham’s plea for the righteous. The was never any danger that the Author of Good was going to waste the city with 100 righteous in it. God was displaying His character for Abraham (and us) to see.
After all, God had the names of those who will be saved written in the Book of Life from before the of the earth. And it isn’t in pencil.
Dave
2 Timothy 2:7 (ESV) – Think over what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything
I agree. Infinity is beyond our ability to grasp. Timelessness messes up our theories as well.
I’m a believer in free will. It’s difficult to square the names in the Book of Life with the idea of free will. How can God know which people will choose to be disciples?
I can’t make sense of it unless God can break the rules of time. When God exists (like light) in an ‘eternal now’ it makes (a little) more sense to my finite mind.
John,
I agree with the “eternal now” viewpoint. And it gives me actual headaches when I try to grasp it for too long.
Just to throw it out there… The predestinarian view (to which I subscribe) states that God predetermined those who were given to Christ (Old and New Testament until now).
Our free will causes all of us to reject God until He “turns on the lights”, and we have no way of disbelief, once the Truth is revealed. He changes our hearts, gives us new lenses to see through, if you will, and it is then plain to us.
A matter of debate within the camp, I know, and I was hesitant to even go there, but I did. Heh.
Dave
John 15:16 (ESV) – You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
How is it ‘free will’ if we have no choice but to reject God?
John,
Free will is the ability to choose one desires. In our sinful, fallen state, we would not choose God.
If we are sinners at birth, our free will is limited to what we know: sinful, self-center mess.
Also, our free will is limited in our ability to actually do something. No matter how much I desire to fly without aid, I just am unsure to do it. (I wish I could, though… Flying would be a very cool thing).
We have a spiritual inability to choose God apart from His inner working of revelation.
That, and the concept of free will (at least absolute free will) is more American than biblical.
I once was taking with a young pastor at my old church who brought up issues on free will. He knew my take on it. I teasingly said that I know of no Christian who really believes in a person’s free, uninfluenced-by-God choosing of Him.
When he challenged my statement, I asked him if he prayed for people’s salvation. Of course, he did. I said that if it were a matter of one’s free will assist from divine interference, we ought not to pray to God for their salvation but beg the person to believe.
Ugh. Another novella. My apologies.
Dave
John 6:65 (ESV) – And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
It seems to me that our sinful, fallen state is caused by the choices we make. I don’t think we are sinners at birth. I think we become sinners the moment we have knowledge of good and evil and choose evil. Of course, only God knows when that moment happens.
I understand that if God doesn’t call me, I cannot come to Him. I’m not in a position to put up a fight against the will of the Creator of the Universe. I think that God has called everyone. I think the heavens declare His glory. He has made Himself known to us and we are without excuse. It doesn’t make sense to me that the atheists are correct that they will stand before God one day and tell him, ‘You didn’t give me any evidence!’
If God is picking and choosing individuals, then there is no free will. This is theological determinism. The story is already written. We are just following the script.
At the same time, there is no objective morality. Neither sinner nor saint is responsible for their behavior. The relativists are correct.
Your story about the young pastor is interesting. I’ve had similar conversations with people through the years. I’ve arrived at the opposite conclusion! I actually don’t pray for people’s salvation because I can’t figure out what I’m asking God to do. I don’t believe He will crack open a person’s head and replace rebellion with repentance. And I don’t think I need to ask God to ‘tug at the heart’. He’s already doing that. I think God loves the sinner even more than I do. So I’m more inclined to pray for wisdom for myself. That way, I might be able to say or do something that will give a nonbeliever pause.
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 2 Peter 3:8-9
John,
I must take our discussion back a few steps then, if you don’t believe in imputed sin, also called original sin, or being born sinful.
Here is an article that would be much more concise than I usually am:
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-is-the-biblical-evidence-for-the-imputation-of-adams-sin
The biblical picture is that because of Adam’s sin, we all inherit the sinful nature. Thus, with Christ’s sinless life, we inherit that righteousness in God’s eyes. We inherit that through salvation, Him dying for our sins.
Scripture says we sin because we are sinners, not that we become sinners once we sin.
I am enjoying our discussion. It is nice to not have to wade through a couple hundred tangential ad hominems to see an intelligent conversation.
Dave
Romans 5:10-17 (ESV)
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[a] because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
I read through the article and I think I understand the concept of original sin. I just disagree with it. 🙂
Original sin entered the world when Adam (and Eve) broke the only rule God established for mankind. Breaking that rule resulted in the ‘knowledge’ of good and evil. Prior to that sin, mankind literally did not have the concept of evil. And, of course, didn’t understand the concept of death either.
Sin changed mankind to be certain. Adam’s descendants all have knowledge of good and evil. Adam’s descendants all die. We can agree that these consequences are still in place. But I think Adam and Eve CHOSE to do evil. They had free will.
I believe free will is part of what it means to be ‘in the image of God’. God makes choices and he ALLOWS us to make choices. I do not believe our free will impacts God’s sovereignty in the slightest. In fact, allowing free will demonstrates that God truly doesn’t NEED anything from us. He doesn’t need our admiration. He doesn’t need our love.
I also believe that ‘reason’ is part of being in God’s image. God reasons and he not only ALLOWS us to reason…He ENABLES us to reason. It is reason that is supposed to guide our free willed decisions.
Could I be completely mistaken about all of this? Of course! And if it turns out that God is programming every thought I have and every decision I make, how would I ever know it?
John,
Most interesting.
I think Adam and Eve already had a concept of good and evil. Good was obedience, while evil was disobedience. They had not *experienced” the results of disobedience, as they desired to “be like God, knowing good and evil”. But Satan lied, that nasty serpent. They already had the knowledge, and they had the blessings of the garden. But Satan tempted them with more, intimating that the Almighty was holding out on them.
Once they experienced the results of disobedience, they felt naked, exposed, and hid from God. They tried to make coverings for themselves (so like humans to try to cover sin our own way), but God shed the blood of an animal to provide their first covering. Even then, I think God was picturing how Jesus would cover our sins with His blood. Human effort was just not good enough. God had to supply the covering.
Enough of that from me for now. I do not wish to belabor our differences in viewpoint on the issue.
I yield the virtual floor to our host.
/bow
Dave
(who is always willing to continue the bandying, but not at the expense of exasperating others)
Comment section is yours too, Dave. I’m almost giddy about this conversation!
Have we ever had an uninterrupted dialogue here? EVER? I can’t remember.
My question is, how did Adam and Eve have a concept of good and evil. I agree with you that it is obedience and disobedience. But they had never known disobedience. It had not happened. Can we understand ‘cold’ when we have no knowledge of ‘hot’?
We agree that disobedience revealed their nakedness. But they had been naked all along and apparently didn’t notice it. If they had knowledge of good and evil, why didn’t they notice nakedness before?
John,
Yeah, I am enjoying the uninterrupted adult conversations as well! May as well milk it for all its worth.
Genesis 2:15-17 (ESV) – 15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Adam had the concept of good and evil just by being presented with the prohibition from eating of the tree. They knew that God said not to do it, so they could see it was wrong to do. After all, there was even the consequence put forth before the act was committed.
Satan deceived them, telling them “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Satan gave them the impression that God was not looking out for their best interest, but that he, the serpent, was. They were not only disobeying a clear command of God, but they were showing a lack of faith in God, and feeling, perhaps, greedy for something they did not have access to.
It is interesting that the serpent went to Eve with the temptation, though Adam was right there. Adam was the one given the commandment, before Eve was made, and we can assume that it was Adam who told Eve the “rules of the road”.
What is missing from the account is any attempt at Adam or Eve to defend God’s command. No thought as to the consequence, only their desire now over the clear consequence of death. That must have been some temptation, that death was worth “being like God and knowing good and evil”. And they believed Satan that they would not die. Over the One who created them. And I am sure if it had been “Dave and Eve”, we would have the same results.
As for the “hot” and “cold”, I don’t see that as the same contrast. Not sure that I can come up with a good parallel, but I will think on it. They understood that God said no, and they decided to disobey that.
As for the nakedness, they noticed, but there was no shame. Genesis 2:25 And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed. This is before the Fall. Why were they not ashamed? Because…. um…. I am not really sure. I can guess. Perhaps with sin, comes shame even of our natural form. Or perhaps when the Fall happened, God underendowed them as a penalty? Kidding…
I can conjecture, though, that it has to do with being exposed. Children run around naked until a certain age. Is that because we teach them to start feeling awkward at some time, or is it something innate? I don’t know. Some natives run around unclad all of their lives. They seem to have no issue with it. Is that okay? Not sure, but they may learn to desensitize themselves from it if they do feel shame at some time. Shoot, I remember being a kid and terrified for the other kids to see my underwear when I changed at school for gym. So I am no expert on the subject.
Great conversations. I pray they continue.
Dave
I think the problem is that people confuse God changing His mind with changing His character. God’s character does not change. Just because He appears to change His mind about something doesn’t mean it changes Who He is. What do you do with verses such as Jeremiah 19:5 – “They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind.” God apparently couldn’t even imagine such bad behaviour! I guess like a parent who knows their kids are capable of anything, He doesn’t assume it’s what they’ll do. None of this however, alters God’s character. A change of mind does not mean a change of heart condition.
Good point. God’s character remains constant.
I believe what troubles some people is the idea that we change our minds in light of new information. God is supposed to know everything so changing His mind isn’t something that an omniscient being needs to do.
Its a fair point. I don’t have a better answer than what I suggested in the post.
You accept the veracity of a text that is known to be spurious?
Why would you do that?
On what basis do you make this assumption?
But does your wife like you more than she likes slugs? As established on the most recent podcast, she likes her bugs. And slugs are definitely bug-esque…
This is good jb. The idea that slugs ‘know’ the trash can they are traversing was ‘created’ for their benefit and according to the glory of mankind………….made in the image of…………..wait for it……..oh can I say it? made in the image of …………………
……………aw heck, I changed my mind.
I’m curious what you think, CS.
Would it bother you if God changes His mind?
I appreciate the conversation Abraham had with God regarding the destroying of the city.
If there be 50? If there be 45? 40? 30? If there be 10 righteous people?
Seems God was more than willing to ‘change His mind,’ of course without a strand of a hairs challenge to His sovereignty.
And of course in the end: ‘shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?’
Of course He will do right. He IS right, and can act no other way.
I agree.
From my position, it’s hard to imagine God being ‘unchanging’ because change is what EVERYTHING else does. God is the ONLY constant reality.
We’re made in the image of God. Maybe that means we have some of His ‘I Will Be Who I Will Be’ nature. Maybe that’s precisely WHY He created us.
I agree with you that God changing His mind does not reduce Him in any way. In fact, flexibility seems an appropriate quality considering He deals with us.
I have a very strict, “Don’t Build Forts With the Couch Cushions” rule. For some reason, that was the only thing my kids wanted to do yesterday.
While the older two were in time-out for the second or third time, my baby (15 months) decided to get a piece of the action by pulling the pillows off. But SHE was redirected instead of punished. (Did I change my mind about the cushions?)
Then, toward the end of the day, I was literally flabbergasted to find my oldest had built an “airplane” out of the couch cushions.
Me: “After all day, have you learned nothing?!”
Cami: *Shamed look.*
Me: “What were you thinking, while you were building this creation? What was going through your head?”
Cami: *still looking sad* “I thought it was bad…”
Me: “You knew it was bad, but you did it anyway?”
Cami: *nods*
Me: “What did I tell you was going to happen if you took the cushions off the couch again?”
Cami: “I don’t want a spank.”
Me: “I didn’t ask what you want. I asked what you should get. When we do something we KNOW is wrong, what do we deserve?”
Cami: “Spanking or time-out.”
Me: “Yes, you deserve to have consequences for disobeying. But…I’m glad you told me the truth. I’m going to give you grace.”
Did I change my mind about the cushions?
No.
But did I change my mind about the consequences?
Yes, I did.
And, God willing, the lesson will be even more memorable when contrasted with all the consequences she had that day than it would have been with either all-punishment or all-grace.
This is a much better conversation without John Zande mucking it up with nonsense.
We totally agree. lol.
My dad was about to spank one time because I was being really, really bad.
But I talked him out of it.
And immediately he winked out of existence!
So sorry to hear that!
Cheer up though. If you had been raised by atheists, you wouldn’t have had a dad in the first place.