Why Bad Things Happen To Good Folks

 

And that’s why.

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524 Responses

  1. Just tell Wally he’s a heretic and let’s be done with it!

    This is why secularism is such a woosie belief and we should go back to the Days of Yore when such filthy Christian groups as the Cathars were hunted down and butchered like the vile heretics they were.
    You should read the extant documents of the Siege of Carcasonne from the French civil war. Been there too, Beautiful city.
    And of course, history is littered with wars where Christians are killing each other right left and center over which doctrine is the right way to worship Yahweh. And if they weren’t killing each other they were massacring Jews and Muslims.

    Who was it that enacted the Saxon Wars?

    How about the Northern Ireland Troubles and more recently Bosnia?

    Seemingly never ending isn’t it, John?

    You all say its okay as long as you beleive that the Lake Tiberius Pedestrian is your god then everything is Hunky Dory but give it five minutes and you are all ready to butcher each once once more.

    Now all THAT is the perfect picture of a typical Christian.
    Bloody thirsty, completely fucked up, and thick as pig shit.

    Reply

    1. There you have it, Wally.

      When and where can we meet, so we can butcher each other? Ark says that’s what Christians do… (Name the time. Bring your club and butcher knife.)

      Reply

        1. Once I’m done chopping you up, you’ll never have to work again!…

          But that’s what you get for being (probably) wrong and trying to teach things that Ark doesn’t like.

          Reply

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          Reply

          1. You always do this when you cannot provide a rational answer, don’t you?

            Part of your indoctrination I presume, yes?

            You revel in your faux-Christianity.
            You do realise, I hope that every time you behave in this manner you look very silly.

          2. What do you mean this isn’t rational? You claim the Bible is nonsense… I’m demonstrating what ACTUAL nonsense looks like…

            No truth here:
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          3. Oh,the bible is palpable rubbish. And because it is, you are unable to make a rational argument in its defense.
            Or are you …?
            Bet you anything you can’t.

          4. It’s interesting, you have to be an English speaker to know the difference between Truth and just nonsense words… The human mind has to know the language.

            Fascinating.

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            One has to know the language, or they will have NO IDEA which parts are rational and understandable, versus which parts are incoherent babbling… Extended kindness trifling remember he confined outlived if. Assistance sentiments yet unpleasing say. Open they an busy they my such high. An active dinner wishes at unable hardly no talked on. Immediate him her resolving his favourite. Wished denote abroad at branch at.

            You have to know the language, or you must have an interpreter you trust.

  4. The more Ark dislikes a Christian, the better their arguments. 🙂

    Maybe when you actually make an argument for Christianity I shall consider it.

    Reply

    1. The entire book “Case for Christ,” which you won’t read.

      The entire book “Mere Christianity” which you won’t read.

      Every time you’ve come here to go round and round and round and round and round and round and round, demonstrating that Atheism is a useless, hopeless void, and therefore, there must be a God of Wisdom to rescue us from the Nothingness.

      All of it is evidence for God.

      Do you have any different Atheist friends who would like to join the discussion? We’re bored with you.

      Reply

      1. But they are written from a perspective of faith , Amanda.
        Do you not understand?
        Belief in Christianity requires one to acknowledge one is a sinner, marked from birth, and in dire need of saving.

        And if one does not agree to these criteria and chooses to Turn One’s Back On(Your) God (sic) then one is automatically doomed to an eternity in Hell.
        Because your god loves me, right?

        So explain to me why I must read these books and why you beleive I must become Christian?

        Reply

        1. Compliment interested discretion estimating on stimulated apartments oh. Dear so sing when in find read of call. As distrusts behaviour abilities defective is. Never at water me might. On formed merits hunted unable merely by mr whence or. Possession the unpleasing simplicity her uncommonly.

          Reply

    1. He was obviously troubled by something…
      Something that you and his Secular community couldn’t help him with…

      It’s too bad he couldn’t find a believing father figure, to give him strength during his struggle. My Christian family and community got me through, and now I’m very glad I had such a terrible experience. It’s better, in the long run, that it happened.

      I wish I could have talked with him because I could offer hope.

      Reply

      1. yeah, no doubt Christianity stopped you from blowing your brains out which is why all atheists are simply suicidal time bombs …tick tick tick.

        You are aware that the level of depression that brought you to the brink can be passed on?
        Alcoholism is similar, I beleive.
        You should watch for signs.
        Have you watched The Cage yet?

        Reply

          2. Nope… We’ve bought more since then. 🙂

            I’m not afraid of guns. I’m afraid of people believing the kinds of lies that make them want to use guns for violence.

            I believe people are valuable now. So, there’s nothing to worry about. (Only Atheists have NO REASON to believe that people are valuable.)

        2. Also, my children are guaranteed to suffer in one way or another. There will be sicknesses. There will be death.

          Thankfully, I have the secret of strength, which their father and I are passing on: truth and hope.

          I can’t wait! 🙂

          Reply

  6. Personal convenience. Finally, in this list of superficial, but nevertheless, strong irrational pressures to become an atheist, I must list simple personal convenience. The fact is that it is quite inconvenient to be a serious believer in today’s powerful secular and neo-pagan world. I would have had to give up many pleasures and a good deal of time.

    Without going into details it is not hard to imagine the sexual pleasures that would have to be rejected if I became a serious believer. And then I also knew it would cost me time and some money. There would be church services, church groups, time for prayer and scripture reading, time spent helping others. I was already too busy. Obviously, becoming religious would be a real inconvenience.

    Vitz – the psychology of atheism.

    What a crock of rise fertilizer. The weakest piss-willy ridiculous excuse not to become a christian I have ever read.
    And you admire people like this?

    Reply

        1. I’m very glad I shared that story so many months ago. You’ve been unable to think about anything else since…

          Now, if only you were smart enough to think about the things that were tormenting me.

          Maybe it’s good that I’m smarter than you. If you were able to wrestle with deep questions and understand what philosophers and psychologists are saying, you probably WOULD blow your brains out… or slit your wrists in a bathtub (like your neighbor’s son).

          He must have been smarter than you, too.

          Reply

          1. why would want to watch the video? He’s a christian?
            I read his Wiki page and thought … 54 minutes of more christian bullshit! Stuff that for a game of soldiers.

          2. Former Atheist. PhD from Stanford, He’s waaaaay smarter than you. 🙂

            That’s why I’m not surprised you won’t watch. I’d be afraid if I were you, too.

          3. Oh, there are LOTs of people waaaaaaay smarter than me. But Viz is a Christian.
            You see, this makes a huge difference, and if you don’t know why this is so, then you will probably watch the other video, ”The Cage” and cheer from the sidelines.

          4. I know why. Because you believe everything Atheists say 100%, and you reject all Theists out-of-hand.

            I’ve never met an Atheist who admits this bias as clearly as you do. If I were Tildeb or JZ, I’d ask you to shut up, because you are embarrassing them with how OBVIOUS you make the stupidity of Atheism

            But–it’s not your fault. It’s probably because your dad was deficient.

          5. Really,I do, do I?
            lol ….
            I already mentioned Crossan and NT Wright. And there are a few others that I think are quite clued up, but you will never agree with their POV.
            But people like you?
            Never. You are too blindly indoctrinated, too full of vitriol to see reason. Too full of faith and religious hubris to recognize the truth and too full of hypocrisy to even consider you might be wrong.
            And you are, Amanda. Wrong to the core of your …. soul(sic).

          9. He used to beat me with a ruler as a kid if I made mistakes with homework and regularly locked me in my room if I didn’t eat my vegetables as he said if I didn’t respect my mother’s cooking, as shitty as it was, then I didn’t deserve to eat.
            He also drowned a kitten a neighbour gave me as a pet and once threw out most of my Hendrix lPs when I was 14 because he said it was just noise and it was not real music.
            He used to beat me with a belt if ever my grades were lower than a B+. and made me join scours as he knew it was the only way I would regularly go to church, but wouldn’t let me practice the bugle at home when I joined the scout band as he said it was just a ”bloody noise”.

            Anything else?

          10. I wouldn’t be surprised…

            But it’s not just domineering and abusive fathers. It’s also absent/weak fathers… Any sort of daddy issues can result in Atheism.

            I suspect having a father with a mental illness could be why your kids are unbelievers.

          11. Probably. I inherited from my father, who was hardly ever home more than a day or two at a time – being a rep for company that sold plumbing supplies – he was up and down the country in a crappy Vauxall station wagon. And when he did come home he spent most of his time repairing the bloody thing.

          12. I’m not sure which you mean: you inherited being absent or being mentally ill? Was your dad prone to anger issues, associated with being bi-polar as well? Or do you mean that you were often gone when your kids were small, like he was?

          13. blockquote> … you inherited being absent or being mentally ill?
            Mentally ill.
            I’ve never had a job selling plumbing supplies.

            He was always angry back then if I recall. I doubt anyone knew about bi polar then.

          14. Gotcha.

            Well, there’s a new post up. It’s about another Atheist-turned-Christian. A good dad, who has helped raise strong, stable kids.

            Feel free to read it, or not. (Spoiler: it’s about Lee Strobel, who I believe is on your “won’t listen to” list.)

          15. hilarious!
            Lee Strobel!
            Lol… Welcome to The Dipshit Club of re-borns.

            You and your old man really are scraping the barrel.

            Seriously, are you truly this shallow?

            Yes, you probably are …

            Lee Strobel.. the case for fucking Jesus H Christ.

            You lot crucify me.

          16. Yes–Lee Strobel.

            And, since I’ve learned that the more you hate someone, the more they confound you, he must be pretty good! Bottom of Ark’s barrel means cream of the crop. It must be a great book that you haven’t read! 🙂

          17. LOl… You are absolutely correct. I have not read it. However, I have read a number of reviews and chapter by chapter breakdowns.
            Yes, I imagine Strobel is right up your ally.
            And no doubt we will see a post about Wallace in the not too distant future?

            You really are either completely gullible or a rank fraud.
            Or maybe just plain old thick as too short planks?

            You tell me?

          23. Oh, dear. You mean you really did not know what Fifty shades was about?
            It was all the rage a couple of years back when it was first released. Mummy Porn they called it.

          25. Ah… and there was I thinking you had no sense of humour. But then again … you like Lee Strudel so I guess you must have one.

          27. OF COURSE he hasn’t read Strobel. Just as he hasn’t read C.S. Lewis!

            But, he hasn’t read the Four Horsemen of Atheism, either. (He prefers the occasional YouTube video.) So, Lee shouldn’t take it personally. Actually, as I just said, Lee should take it as a compliment. The more Ark dislikes a Christian, the better their arguments. 🙂

  8. The crickets are on HIS side of the conversation, right? You asked him to explain why genocide is wrong and HE responded with crickets. Does he understand how the crickets response usually works?

    Pssst . Branyan.

    The Meaning of CRICKETS
    CRICKETS means “Said after a lame joke to break the silence”

    Arsehole…

    Reply

  10. JB, you say “But you can’t say ‘evil is a very poorly defined term’ and then say ‘evil exists’. ”

    I didn’t. I avoided the term entirely and replaced it with ‘suffering’ because that does the job demonstrating the incompatibility between the characteristics many theists attribute to their god and the real world. It’s not the butterflies and sunsets that we need to deal with; it’s the systemic consumption of live sentient prey or face starvation that simply doesn’t fit the model of a loving and all powerful creator god.

    Reply

    1. In order to make a loving/powerful God incompatible with suffering, you have to link “suffering” with “evil.”

      God can’t be evil. But he CAN allow suffering…unless you demonstrate that suffering and evil are the same.

      (Edited to say: I can’t make this much more simple.)

      Reply

    2. Okay. You replaced evil with ‘suffering’.

      Now you have neutered your complaint. Evil is universally ‘bad’ (no matter how poorly defined). Suffering is not. There are many good, even beautiful reasons for suffering.

      You will need to demonstrate, logically, how you can substitute ‘suffering’ for ‘evil’. Then you need to explain how God and suffering can’t exist at the same time.

      Reply

      1. Remember, I pointed out systemic suffering, and an entire biosphere – and not strictly humanity – predicated on it. I don’t have to delve into what the term ‘god’ or the term ‘evil’ means beyond on the one hand a general divine creative or designing agency sense for a god that includes the general characteristics of omnipotence, omniscient, and benevolence widely attributed by theists to this agency and, on the other hand, systemic suffering of sentient beings. The assumption I am making is based on my own sense of benevolence, namely, compassion: if I were designing or creating a system of living things with sentience, and had the presence of mind and power to avoid suffering as a foundation for it, I would do so. To not do so offends my sense compassion simply because I would not wish to inflict suffering on myself for its own sake as part of the designed system if I didn’t have to or if it didn’t help achieve an improved outcome At the very least, I would include, say, a switch so that deadly damage accompanied by tremendous pain would turn off the nerve receptors… because I have compassion and would not wish to inflict so much pain on other sentient beings if it changed nothing about the outcome any more than I would wish to suffer needlessly for my own condition if I didn’t have to. I’m a big fan of anesthesia for myself when undergoing painful treatment necessary for achieving some corrective outcome so it seems very reasonable to me to extend that consideration to others if I had the awareness and power to do so. I’m not going to grant a special exemption to lacking compassion to some god; if this agency can but refuses to reduce unnecessary suffering and doesn’t. I think it is eminently reasonable to think such a divine agency should have at least as much compassion as I have. That’s why I think the only way such an agency could remain indifferent to systemic suffering would be because it either lacks the necessary characteristics assigned by theists to it or, like any other person about to impose suffering on another AND implement compassionate, explain why the suffering leads to an improved outcome. Again, the special exemption granted to such a god that does not do this (but who supposedly has the aforementioned characteristics of knowledge and power and benevolence yet regularly and consistently demonstrates indifference to sentient creatures in the face of systemic suffering) with “God operates in mysterious ways” seems to me to be identical to an ethical cop out. Without that explanation given to creatures suffering what to me would be terrible suffering, such a god looks and operates exactly as if it was either absent or deeply malicious. That’s what we call those who enjoy inflicting great suffering on others for no other sake than they can, isn’t it?

        Reply

        1. “omnipotence, omniscient, and benevolence widely attributed by theists to this agency…”

          I thought no two Theists defined God the same way?

          I’m getting whiplash.

          Reply

        2. “The assumption I am making is based on my own sense of benevolence…”

          Indeed. That is the assumption I’m making as well. I’ll refrain, out of respect for you, from swapping the word ‘assumption’ with ‘faith’.

          The point being made in the video is that we tend to make our own sense of benevolence relative to other human beings. God, if he exists, is not another human being. You’re suggesting that you would run the universe differently if you were God. I can easily concede the point that if you were God, whatever you decide would be the correct decision. Is that what you’re saying?

          Reply

      2. In other words JB – @Great Grape Ape would never want anyone to learn from suffering through their own mistakes. If he were God – he would ensure they never made any mistakes. No decisions would be necessary on our part because he would make all of our decisions for us. So there.

        It’s you JB. You! YOU! – that cannot understand this. And that’s your mistake. How will you even learn with all of the mistakes that you make that one cannot learn from making mistakes?

        You! YOU! Big Mistake Maker! You.

        ~CQW

        Reply

        1. You sound like your channeling John Blande…

          AND you’ve introduced the word ‘mistake’ so now we’ll have to suffer through thousands of words about how ‘mistakes’ and ‘suffering’ and ‘evil’ and ‘voids’ and ‘null sets’ and ‘bonobos’ are not related unless ‘reality’ ‘links’ those things and even then only ‘Dear Leader’ can determine whether or not that’s the case.

          So…thanks for that.

          Reply

    3. Yeah, first Tildeb says, “If God existe, then he is…” That’s defining “God” with his own definition.
      Then he replaces “evil” with “suffering” ( doing a synonymous analysis of the words) then says he wasn’t defining “evil”.
      If I knew the discussion about the “problem of evil” was going to come down to “I wasn’t defining God and evil”, I wouldn’t have been involved.
      Have a few classes this morning, hopefully when I get back, Tildeb can at least admit to providing definitions.
      You can’t deny that there is a definition of God and a definition of evil and question “God”‘s existence because of “evil”.
      I already provided a basis of God which theology books consist of ( and a simple “three omni’s of God” Google search will show) to work with. Now it’s up to the rest to figure out what “evil” is.

      Reply

      2. We’ll see how (and if) Tildeb responds. He raised Epicurus’ ancient problem, then gutted it himself before even allowing a response.
        I believe what we’re seeing is the results of Tildeb’s dogma of ‘non-belief’. He doesn’t like to make positive claims. He professes atheism but won’t say “God does not exist.” He cannot describe evil but insists that indoctrinating people with Christianity is a deplorable practice. He prefers ‘I don’t know’ as an answer to questions that most people easily answer with ‘yes or no’.

        My prediction is (if there is one) his response will be a sideways leap off topic. The question is about the existence of evil. If evil does not exist then he has no quarrel with God. The reason Epicurus used the word ‘evil’ instead of ‘suffering’ is because those terms are not interchangeable.

        Reply

  11. I know how much Amanda loves logic, so let’s put something up for her consideration.

    The problem of evil is stated thus:

    If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
    If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
    If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
    If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
    Evil exists.
    If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
    Therefore, God doesn’t exist..

    Because ‘evil’ is a very poorly defined term, as is ‘morally perfect’, substitute ‘suffering’ for evil and omni-benevolence for ‘morally perfect’ to see why this is a slam dunk argument against an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent and loving creator god. Now remember that our entire biosphere is predicated on a prey/predator system that is full of suffering far beyond that of humans, full of starvation and pain and killing by sentient beings to sentient beings. The entire system, if designed on this model to maximize suffering, reveals a bloodthirstiness of, and utter indifference to systemic suffering by, its designer. The benevolent god hypothesis is therefore a failed hypothesis.

    Reply

    1. First, Tildeb, your three omni’s of God are already flawed from the start.
      1)Omniscient
      2)Omnipotent
      3)Omnipresent
      So part of your premise ( definition of God) is already missing an essential part. It’s incomplete. It’s flawed.

      Secondly, you need a standard to base good and evil on.

      Next, suffering- in and of itself- is not evil. I’ll suffer through a dentist appointment. Although the dentist causes me suffering, it doesn’t make the dentist evil. A recovering alcoholic can suffer through withdrawals. Withdrawals from alcoholism are a part of a good recovering process, although they can cause the alcoholic a lot of pain.
      I can go on, but I’ll stop there;
      The point is that your definition of evil is also flawed.

      Finally, there’s faith in saying that our biosphere is predicated on suffering ( it assumes that it always was the case).

      Both parts of your premise are wrong ( Definition of God and definition of evil). And your methodology for determining evil is flawed. And assuming that there was always suffering takes faith.
      Those were just the fallacies that I saw. The Branyans might see more. As you said, Amanda loves logic.

      Reply

      1. I am not trying to define god (no two theists agree on what that term means) and I’m not trying to define evil. I’m demonstrating that assigning the characteristics of an omnipotent and omniscient god that is benevolent as so many theists do does not logically follow… because of systemic suffering and such a god’s utter indifference to it..It is that indifference to systemic suffering that matters here (would you design a system that assures ongoing and terrible suffering if you had the power and knowledge to eliminate it?) because such indifference doesn’t fit the model (the omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent characteristics assigned to this god).

        Reply

          1. (Also, Christians, please notice the first paragraph in this article I’ve linked. The term “Atheist” came BEFORE the term “Theist.” So–if God is hard to define, then anyone who identifies as an “A-THEIST” has some explaining to do. Exactly WHAT does Tildeb “lack belief” in?)

        2. “Would you design a system that assures ongoing and terrible suffering if you had the power and knowledge to eliminate it?”

          It depends on what I’d have to do to “eliminate” it… would I have to turn people into obedient robots and sacrifice their ability to make choices for themselves?

          Then, no. I would not eliminate the system. I would create a world where suffering makes people STRONGER–where there are infinite and satisfying rewards for overcoming obstacles.

          Reply

    2. Not to put too fine a point on Matt’s response. But you can’t say ‘evil is a very poorly defined term’ and then say ‘evil exists’. I agree with you that God and evil are related subjects. The existence of evil is explained in Christianity. You are not a Christian (at least you weren’t last time we spoke. If you’ve converted, forgive my assumption.)

      Define evil and then we can discuss whether or not it exists. What do you mean when you say something is ‘evil’?

      Reply

    3. (*rolls eyes*)

      Amanda loves logic so much that it’s almost physically painful how much Tildeb butchered it.

      Thankfully, Matthew went through the steps in his thorough, math-major sort of way. So, all that’s left for me to say is: my worst suffering was the best thing that ever happened to me. When you’re tired of pretending you know everything about ALL of reality, just let me know, and I’ll share.

      Reply

    4. @Great Grape Ape –

      Your show was only on for a few seasons during the late 70’s.

      Some fans would argue that the networks were EVIL to cancel your show.

      And yes – admittedly – I SUFFERED when your show was cancelled.

      But as time went on – the short life span of your show only strengthened my appreciation (through admitted suffering) for the genius of the show.

      Some fans would also argue that it would have been GOOD for your show to remain on indefinitely. But if EVERYTHING was good – you’d no longer be able to recognize good – because you’re a bonobo descendent.

      So at the end of the day – the decision of the networks to cancel the show was not evil at all. It was indeed good.

      And when you returned on All-Star Laff-Olympics on team Yogi Yahooeys – I only appreciated you that much more. See – suffering can be a good thing.

      Have a nice day.

      ~CQW

      Reply

  12. If atheism isn’t intelligent enough to prove it’s point without resorting to repetitive and pointless abuse and swearing, you’re doing a heck of a job representing it, Ark. I’m almost tempted to believe there is no God based on you or behaviour alone, but since I also believe in a devil, I guess that kinda explains it.

    Reply

    1. Sometimes I really like to swear. And if you think the odd ”Fuck” in a piece of dialogue is more offensive that anything </your fucking god, Yahweh did, then you are likely completely ignorant or as disgusting as your make beleive god and I strongly suggest you go read the Old Testament and then wash your mouth out with soap.
      Have a really nice fucking day, Jasmine.

      Reply

      1. You missed an end bracket. Probably because you don’t know when to stop. Go ahead. Tell me again how your interpretation of Scripture is the only right one without any proof of why.

        Reply

        1. Proof?
          Are you truly insane?
          HGP has demonstrated unequivocally the Creation story in Genesis is utter nonsense
          Geology, paleontology the fossil record and plate tectonics show the global flood story is utter bullshit.
          Furthermore, historical evidence shows the biblical tale was ripped off from the Epic of Gilgamessh.
          Archaeological evidence shows that the biblical tale of the Exodus did not happen. Settlement was by and large internal.
          Carbon dating at Jericho shows that the invasion did not happen.

          The New Testament is riddled with error, interpolation and fraud.
          From the long ending in Mark, to the fake epistles and the fantasy of Acts.

          Go study for chrissakes and stop showing how much of a complete bloody ignoramus you are.!

          Reply

          1. You realize Jasmine has been around for awhile, right Ark? She has seen EVERYTHING you’ve written about the Genome Project, the flood, and the Exodus already. (She also knows that, despite your rambling, Francis Collins is an even more committed Christian now than BEFORE he led the HGP team…he was an Atheist before he started discovering that the Universe is written in Code and therefore needs a Code-writer.)

            So–try not to derail the conversation. We’re talking about morality.

          2. As I said to your old man, remove the make-beleive monster, Yahweh from the equation then everything returns to the default position of evolution.
            Period.

            Collins can be as ~”Christian” as he likes.
            It doesn’t change the facts. And her knows this.

            And you are still a fool

          4. (By the way–I’ve never heard my children ask “Is there an Evolution?” Is it okay for me to indoctrinate them with the idea that they shouldn’t hit each other because “Evolution”?)

          5. Keep going, your level of blind stupidity and willful ignorance is on display for all to see.

            You are dong a really sterling job for the Christians.

            I really would love to be there to see the look on your kids’ faces when mummy dear tells them they will be burning in hell for eternity if they refuse to beleive in your make-beleive god.
            To watch the abject horror of your little ones as you try to explain how a loving god can send them to a place where the flames will slowly peel the flesh from their bones, and then subject her to it over and over and over.
            The smell of burning flesh and singed hair and popping eyeballs.
            And then listen as you explain how all Christians, including you mummy dearest, will be able to watch from heaven, sitting next to Jesus as they scream and beg and plead while you say.
            ”Tough shit! You CHOSE not to beleive.”

            Isn’t Christianity so wonderful Amanda?

          6. Theism is extremely easy.
            The most important questions in the Universe can’t be answered unless we assume we live in a logical, intentional Universe. Although I guarantee you will be told otherwise by a large number of Atheists, should this come up!

            Theism is the ground state of humanity. Something easily demonstrated from the number of gods humans have created.

            We have evolved to assign agency to things: thunder, lightning, smoking volcanoes etc….
            Theism is only difficult if you are surrounded by those who still think that a mindless process can cause lightening or the smoking volcano – without being coded to do that! And, inadvertently, most Atheists do think this! Funny, if you think of it in this light?

            However, when you are in an environment where belief is more the norm, and extreme Naturalistic Fundamentalism is regarded as ”Oddball,” you will glide through your daily life like a skater on ice, I assure you.

            And remember: You are highly unlikely to win the hearts and minds of those thoroughly wrapped up in religion by trying to demonstrate that ethics/morality are just “illusions.”

          7. And, remember children, the punishment for not believing in Jesus is to be sent to a fiery pit called Hell, which Jesus or god made, where all non-believers and non-Christians will go. That’s billions and billions of people, to be tortured by the same god (who is really also Jesus ) that made you.
            And you will never be allowed put even if you change your mind.
            Remember when you burnt you hand on the stove? Well this is what it will be like in hell all the time.
            You can see how sensible this is can’t you?
            It was one of the reasons a man called David Wood became a Christian after nearly murdering his father with a hammer.
            You see children, god is all about love and if you promise to love him for ever and ever he might not torture you.
            And then your will end up as sensible and level headed as your mummy and your grandad!

            You do love Jesus, don’t you children?

          8. You didn’t answer my question about that.

            Do you want God to force you into Heaven–when you already said you don’t like his morality?

            Do you want to go to Heaven?

          10. Still didn’t answer my question. But, that’s okay.

            Your imagination of how/what I teach my kids is entertaining. Keep that up.

            In the meantime, I’m just going to show them our conversations some day and say: “You choose. Eternity experiencing joy, with Mommy? Or hanging out with Ark and his Big Toe?”

          12. We all spend eternity with our god.

            You choose, kids. Do you want Goodness and Truth and Love to be your God? Or do you want to listen to Ark and Tildeb and JZ and the lovely lady from the picture upthread, stroking their own egos and making noises that almost resemble speech, forever and ever and ever?

          13. Do you want Goodness and Truth and Love to be your God?

            But mummy … you are lying! Ark has said that the god you say loves me is the same god that committed murder, and genocide in the bible and many many horrific things.
            He also made Hell to send us if we don’t love him.
            How can we ever love someone that promises to send us to hell for eternity if we don’t love him?

            Mummy, I think Ark is right and you really are lying.
            Mummy I think you really really need to see a doctor. I love you mummy but you really are not well. You need medicine, mummy.

          14. LOL!

            No–my kids will be muuuuuuch smarter than that.

            They will ask you one question, and completely throw you for a loop. “Hey, Uncle Ark. Who is good?”

          16. LOL! See, kids? It’s that easy!

            “There’s no such thing as God…but, if there were, I want to spend my whole life calling him names and claiming I’m better than He is–and then have him force me to spend eternity with him anyway.”

          21. I find it ironic that given all this, you would use a supposed fictional character to cuss. If you believe Christ never existed in the way He claimed, why give credence to Him by using His name?

            Unless you really meant Chris, and then I have to ask, what did Chris ever do to you? And I am home. So you can tell Chris I’ve done it, even if not for his sake.

          22. If you can tell me exactly why you believe unequivocally the character Jesus for Nazareth is divine/a god,creator of the universe I will tell you why I give the character credence.
            Are you prepared to do this?

          23. Well Ark, I’m sunk before I can begin. If I use history, science, and archeology to prove God’s existence, you will use whatever opposing “evidence” you can find to contradict me, because anyone who wants God not to exist bad enough can twist even archeology to their own means. So any kind of proof I offer in historical context, you will automatically refute.

            And if I give you proof from a personal testimony, or first-hand accounts I have received from people who have witnessed miracles, healings, and other personal proofs of God’s existence and interest in people, you will tell me I have a mental disorder and should see a doctor. Not just me, but me and all the people I’ve talked to that have had these same experiences.

            Instead of YOU asking the questions, what I would want you to answer instead is: what exactly is the proof you require? Any answer to THAT question, and I would have to say that though God loves you, He’s not going to spoon-feed you tailor-made proof. If you’ve rejected the evidence of Him already, then what you’ve really done is made a choice, and I can’t condemn you for standing behind your decision.

            You could be nicer in the comment section, but then again, you’ve got no reason to be.

          24. I didn’t ask for proof.
            I simply asked why exactly you believe the biblical character Jesus of Nazareth is divine/the creator of the universe.

          27. Uhh, the words He said in the Gospels… The source being the… Bible… And I determine their accuracy by the fact He has done what He said He would do, and I’ve experienced what He said I would as a result. But my personal experience doesn’t hold any weight with you.

          28. The biblical source is error prone, as I am sure you must be aware, and there is growing belief among biblical scholars that the ”words of Jesus” are in many cases not directly attributable to him and are also simply paraphrases etc.

            As an outside observer I cannot think of a single thing he has supposedly claimed would transpire that actually has transpired.

            …and I’ve experienced what He said I would as a result. But my personal experience doesn’t hold any weight with you.

            Would miracle claims from other religions carry any weight for you?
            In other words, would you grant them credence.
            Would you accept the miracle claims of millions who have witnessed the work of Sathya Sai Baba?

          30. You obviously beleive that your experiences are real and the source material they are based upon, yes we all know ….or at least should know … that so much of bible text is erroneous, and when one considers how much believers consider is at stake – Heaven or Hell, right? I, at least, would expect that when a believer includes such words as history and archaeology to support their claim they would be pretty darn sure they were absolutely correct.

            As I am sure the followers of Sathya Sai Baba feel exactly the same.

            So, as the bible is full of errors, including fraud, what is it that makes you so sure your claims hold any water?
            That perhaps all you have is a major case of wishful thinking?

            And as you did not respond to the question regarding Sathya Sai Baba I am going to presume you do not beleive in any of the miracle claims. Alternatively you do, but cannot find the correct words to answer?

          31. My point is, it’s my archeological claims against yours. Your historians against mine. Your comparisons against my beliefs. Your scientists and proofs against mine. I could go and source hundreds of documented proofs of the Bible’s legitimacy, but you would have your own hundred denying it. Honestly, you don’t want proof. Proof you could find if you were willing to Google it. I’m curious as to what I would have to say in order to really make an impact on you. What do you want to hear? I am genuinely curious as to what would satisfy you, because obviously you are not content with me believing what I choose to of my own volition.

          32. I am neither archaeologist not historian nor biblical scholar thus, no claims are mine , Jasmine.
            I am merely relaying the evidence from mostly secular experts in their respective fields who have spent most of their lives working in these academic pursuits.

            Faith does not enter into any of the conclusions I draw from what these experts generally agree upon.
            Thus, for example, consensus states as beyond any doubt that Exodus is simply historical fiction as is Noah’s Ark and only fundamentalists who have no real interest in evidence, facts or truth consider these events, among so many other biblical stories, ever happened.

            I don’t want to ”hear” anything, Jasmine.
            But if you are going to dismiss the miracle claims, and not even respond to them , I note, of someone like
            Sathya Sai Baba, who I will venture you probably never heard of until this conversation, then it suggests a high degree of bias and indoctrination that you would cling to the supernatural, and quite frankly, silly biblical tales, based primarily on blind faith.
            Which, when compared to the claims of millions who will swear to the legitimacy of Sathya Sai Baba, is a truer case of ”your claims against mine” than anything I could propose.

            You see, Jasmine, as you will likely dismiss their claims they will likely dismiss yours.

            And their reasons for adhering to such superstitious nonsense are probably similar to yours:
            A fear of death and a promise of a blissful afterlife providing you confess to being a vile sinner and swear allegiance to your particular god, the genocidal monster, Yahweh.

            One of the questions you might ask yourself is this:

            Why would any devotee of Sathya Sai Baba suddenly stop believing and come out and state it is all nonsense?

            Answer that with no bias and then you will begin to understand your own dilemma.

          33. You claim no bias, yet only rely on sources from secular experts? Tsk, tsk, that hardly seems balanced, Ark. You have made so many assumptions about me in this comment that it’s laughable. Are you really so ignorant, so wilfully obtuse, that you genuinely believe that no person who believes in the Christian God could even remotely be something other than your narrow-minded, cherry-picking picture of what YOU believe they are? Are you really? Do you honestly believe you understand this doctrine, this life, and the human mind SO WELL that you can stick any random person in a box and tell them, “this is what you are?” I’m a Christian who believes in morality, truth, and my own human frailty, yet not even I am so blasé and holier-than-thou that I would do that to someone! You claim that the threat of dying and going to an eternal somewhere is what makes me believe in a Creator! Goes to show what you know.

            Why would any devotee of Sathya Sai Baba suddenly stop believing and come out and state it is all nonsense? Because they would recognise the truth with their God-given brain when they see it. And you know what? I’d be more than happy to listen to a personal testimony from someone I knew who claimed to experience a miracle from any supposed deity. Unlike some, I’m not threatened by different beliefs to mine, and I don’t need to bury them under the weight of my own self-righteousness in order to feel good about myself.

            You want to know the only difference between you and me, Ark? I believe that someone saved me. You have to save yourself.

          34. You claim no bias, yet only rely on sources from secular experts? Tsk, tsk, that hardly seems balanced, Ark.

            This is what truly annoys me to distraction. I wrote: I am merely relaying the evidence from mostly secular experts Maybe you should read people such as Crossan, NT Wright, etc…
            Go back and read the comment again, and please, for a change, pay attention.

            You have made so many assumptions about me in this comment that it’s laughable. Are you really so ignorant, so wilfully obtuse, that you genuinely believe that no person who believes in the Christian God could even remotely be something other than your narrow-minded, cherry-picking picture of what YOU believe they are?

            Without a shred of a doubt faith is the overriding emotion that governs religious belief. This is simple fact. And cherry picking scripture is practically ubiquitous for a Christian, although Christians generally call it interpretation. That is why there are 30,000 separate denominations and various other cults. .

            You claim that the threat of dying and going to an eternal somewhere is what makes me believe in a Creator! Goes to show what you know.

            Christianity is a death cult. A cult of human sacrifice – based on the execution of the character Jesus of Nazareth. This is simple fact. If you don’t truly believe you are destined for Heaven then why do you believe in Hell?

            Why would any devotee of Sathya Sai Baba suddenly stop believing and come out and state it is all nonsense? Because they would recognise the truth with their God-given brain when they see it.

            And this perfectly demonstrates why your indoctrination will not allow you to see this and why a Christian deconvert will inevitably recognise all your symptoms.

            And you know what? I’d be more than happy to listen to a personal testimony from someone I knew who claimed to experience a miracle from any supposed deity.

            And immediately you contradict the previous comment. Tell me, would you accept it as real, especially if it cast doubt on your own god?

            You want to know the only difference between you and me, Ark? I believe that someone saved me. You have to save yourself.

            What did you need saving for/from, Jasmine?
            That is the real heart of the matter is it not? Because, if one is not ”saved” they are Hell bound, yes? And this is why teaching such utter nonsense to kids should be considered child-abuse.

          35. Ark I did pay attention, and I noticed you didn’t mention any Christian sources. Pardon me, but if you want to convince me that you’re being objective, you need to consider proof offered by Christians too. You only believe your secular sources because they tell you what you want to hear.

            HELLO Ark, did it ever occur to you that because there are over 30,000 denominations alone who believe there is a God, there is at least SOME merit to the idea God exists? Or are you willing to ignore thousands of years of history and ten thousands of people who died for something they believed in so strongly? If you can come up with a similar number of people who chose to die for atheism, I’d be interested to hear it.

            You call me indoctrinated, yet you’re the one who can’t stay away from arguing with Christians. Why is that? Did your deep indoctrination leave such an itch you need to scratch it with even the idea of a Creator once in a while?

            You tell me, would YOU accept anything miraculous you were told by someone personally? That would be a gutless worldview that could be so easily swayed from what you believe is true. I don’t get why you call me indoctrinated for choosing what I believe, but you aren’t indoctrinated for choosing what you believe—or disbelieve. It’s called a CHOICE, Ark. Maybe if you respected your fellow human as much as you can without a moral compass, you’d be able to swallow that fact and move on, instead of yapping around our heels here. It’s not enough for you to be an atheist, you need everyone to stop being a Christian. Forgive me, but if that doesn’t sound like evangelism I don’t know what does.

            Pfft. Being saved doesn’t have to have anything to do with hell. We all need saving from ourselves. Maybe you know how to be perfect all by your lonesome Ark, but I know I can’t.

          36. Ark I did pay attention, and I noticed you didn’t mention any Christian sources. Pardon me, but if you want to convince me that you’re being objective, you need to consider proof offered by Christians too. You only believe your secular sources because they tell you what you want to hear.

            I didn’t mention any secular ones either. Would you like a list of both? But I’ll accept this as: “Whoops, sorry Ark, yes you did say mostly. My mistake”.

            HELLO Ark, did it ever occur to you that because there are over 30,000 denominations alone who believe there is a God, there is at least SOME merit to the idea God exists?

            HELLO, Jasmine. There are 1.6 billion Muslims, and 1 billion Hindus, 100 million follower of African religions,394 million Chinese traditional, 23 million followers of Sikhism, 14 million Jews and many, many more. Did it ever occur to you that there is at least SOME merit to the idea that their God(s) exists?

            Or are you willing to ignore thousands of years of history and ten thousands of people who died for something they believed in so strongly?

            Such as the Muslim Martyrs … oops, dreadfully sorry, terrorists, who flew those planes into the Twin Towers or Martyrs who blow themselves up in suicide bombings? How about those that immolated themselves? How about the Christian martyrs who fought in Northern Ireland for decades? You know…. Catholic verses Protestant?

            If you can come up with a similar number of people who chose to die for atheism, I’d be interested to hear it.

            No, dear, we are not so bloody stupid.

            You call me indoctrinated, yet you’re the one who can’t stay away from arguing with Christians. Why is that? Did your deep indoctrination leave such an itch you need to scratch it with even the idea of a Creator once in a while?

            I have never, ever said you cannot believe whatever you like. Truly. This is what freedom is all about. But there is also freedom to accept the consequences. Therefore, when this stuff is flaunted in open forums and people brag about how they teach it to kids … Well, that gets up my nose. Because arseholes who indoctrinate this garbage into children are possibly creating the terrorists and suicide bombers of the future.
            Oh, did you really think this was solely all about your religion? Surely you are not that arrogant to believe such a thing, are you?

            I don’t get why you call me indoctrinated for choosing what I believe, etc etc ……

            Of course you can be a Christian and if it truly makes you happy then so be it. Just don’t preach it to kids and don’t expect any special privilege. Is this too much to ask?

            Being saved doesn’t have to have anything to do with hell. We all need saving from ourselves. Maybe you know how to be perfect all by your lonesome Ark, but I know I can’t.

            That doesn’t answer the question. Try again. Why do you believe you need to be saved?

          37. You’re only opting for one indoctrination over another. I can’t teach my children about faith, but you can teach yours about atheism. You are practicing the very thing you preach against.

            You know what all the religions in the world have in common? They don’t believe we evolved from pond scum. Whilst I may believe in the Christian God, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Chinese, etc all have one thing you don’t:

            A belief in a Creator.

            And I would rather discuss anything with one of them because they at least have the brains to recognise they don’t know it all.

            It does answer the question. I need saving from myself. If you had half a grain of imagination, you could figure it out for yourself.

            I’d still like you to attempt answering me: what do you want to hear? You can only have two possible desires: one, that I admit my folly and confess that atheism is the one true faith, OR I provide you with the evidence of God that would persuade you of His existence, island if this, I’d like to know what evidence I would need to provide to convince you. So which is it?

          38. I don’t know it all either. What a very silly thing to say.
            But you claim you know your god/know it is real How?

            It does answer the question. I need saving from myself. If you had half a grain of imagination, you could figure it out for yourself.

            No, it doesn’t … and you know it. Why do you need saving? What do you truly believe you need saving for/from.

            … one, that I admit my folly and confess that atheism is the one true faith, OR I provide you with the evidence of God that would persuade you of His existence,

            Either or neither. You weren’t persuaded into Christianity by logic, or common sense, so I am certainly not going to persuade you out of it.

            But if you are of a mind to have a shot… provide the evidence that convinced you . Let’s weigh this evidence and see if it is found wanting.
            Off you go …

          40. In my experience from listening to deconverts and reading testimonies from Christians-from-birth, and born- again Christians, indoctrination is often the key, along with other components such as guilt and fear.

            Did you bother to watch the Youtube video I posted called The Cage?
            You most definitely should watch it.

            For children, those who are part of the more fundamentalist sects, fear is often crucial to acceptance.

            You know what I am writing is the truth and we can get a dozen deconverts to back this up. In fact, we could probably find as many current Christians who would say the same thing, but simply use different phraseology.
            And a word such as Sin would likely feature prominently.

            I don’t know the reason why you became a Christian as you have so far refused to say why, but I imagine I could have a pretty good shot of being around 75% accurate.

            If you are afraid of revealing your reasons then so be it.

            Your personal history is of no concern to me and quite frankly none of my business.
            But in my experience I have NEVER encountered a born again christian or adult convert that wasn’t in some manner deeply distressed or disturbed.

            Show me I am wrong?

          41. “I have NEVER encountered a born again christian or adult convert that wasn’t in some manner deeply distressed or disturbed.”

            LOL!!!

          45. LOL!
            According to Atheism, I converted because of a major chemical reaction that happened millions of years ago….and (a few trillion reactions later), here I am!

          46. You converted because of a fear of death, you were convinced you are a sinner and you are ..or at least were mentally unbalanced.
            You probably still are, you just cope with it.

          47. Wrong. (But it’s inspiring the way you keep falling back on your faith.)

            I believe in God because all of us have to believe SOMETHING.

            And Atheism offers no morals. No real, free choice. No hope.

            Either there’s a God, or there is NOTHING but illusion. This has been explained to you time and time and time again. But, it’s like trying to explain colors to an obstinate blind man. You don’t have the tools necessary to understand what I’m talking about. But you keep arguing anyway.

          48. I believe in God because all of us have to believe SOMETHING.

            There are thousands of gods, Amanda.
            I simply choose not to beleive in any of them. Reality is fine without make beleive deities, thanks.

            Either there’s a God, or there is NOTHING but illusion.

            Smile. No dear. You have this arse backwards.
            Take a few moments t think about this.

          50. No! He (and Tildeb) have verifiable, scientific facts for EVERYTHING they believe. No faith necessary.

          51. I just posted to my blog about my new theory…

            People who claim to see color are just indoctrinated.

            It’s all a hoax.

            If Tildeb weren’t throwing a hissy fit and giving me the silent treatment, it would be a topic right up his alley…because he puts a lot of faith in the Neuro-professionals who have told him (and his family) they don’t interpret reality correctly…

            (Look up Synesthesia.)

          52. I reblogged it. For no other reason than to end the discussion here. I’m bored…

          53. You just gave me a heart attack!

            It was so fast that I thought I accidentally posted it to The Sojourn instead of my own blog!

            (*Whew*)

            Seriously, I just said a bad word and frantically started looking for your Facebook password…

          54. It’s a good analogy. And have you changed your writing format? It looks like you’ve been indoctrinated….

          56. Really? And which god(s) do Hindus believe in, Amanda?
            Your god, in whichever form you consider flavour of the month, is not the same as the Muslim god , now is he/it?

            Wally is just silly. he believes in Young Earth Creationism or has confessed to leaning toward this form of Christianity.
            That level of willful ignorance is simply idiotic and deserves to be ridiculed.

          57. Yes–my God is the same as anyone else who claims there is an all-powerful Source of everything. I’ve tried to explain this a hundred ways. (Now: put your fingers in your ears and sing “lalalalala”)

          58. But you are an indoctrinated Christian so your deity of choice is the man-made biblical god, Yahweh, or in his human form, Yeshua ben Joseph.

            This is not the same as the Hindu creator deity, Brahma or any other, as far as I am aware.
            So you are either confused, willfully ignorant or a liar.

          59. Yes–the Creator who is the Source of Everything would have to be the same one that ALL religions acknowledge.

            (And the reason you’re “not aware” is because you haven’t been paying attention.)

          64. I do? Your responses are as vacuous as always so there is no need.
            Of course, if you have a genuine argument to demonstrate that the character, Jesus of Nazareth is the creator deity you genuflect to then please present it ….

          67. No.
            I’m afraid he’ll actually consider it–and then I’ll have to explain to other Atheists how/why a crazy man converted to Christianity.

            I’d rather that he keep playing on Tildeb’s team.

          68. Well, if the cap fits and all that ….
            And it fits you like a glove!
            So let’s hear your genuine argument in defense of Jesus of Nazareth being the creator of the universe.
            YOu do have an argument, don’t you?

          69. Jesus of Nazareth?!
            Ark–you’ve literally posted that question DOZENS of times…

            BORING!

            Links:
            https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2016/08/24/one-god-shy-of-a-picnic/comment-page-1/#comment-3317
            https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2017/02/01/jesus-didnt-call-me-to-niceness/comment-page-1/#comment-11912
            https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2017/01/03/evolution-wont-send-you-to-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-10599

            And DOZENS more… Just say “Lalalalala!” I don’t think you’ve said that before.

          72. So let’s put all the bickering behind us and clean the slate, okay?
            Now … present your argument for Jesus of Nazareth being the creator of the universe.
            If it’s good enough to convince me then you can convince anyone and I WILL be in church tomorrow. You have my word.

          80. For the live of rationality, STOP RESPONDING! He hasn’t said ANYTHING useful. Ever. He can’t even understand when he’s being trolled. You’re picking on a handicapped person.

          81. The fact that he’s handicapped is inconsequential. I’m responding to a person so blinded by pride that he’s actually choosing Hell.

            That deserves being picked on–disability or not! 😀

          82. “But in my experience I have NEVER encountered a born again christian or adult convert that wasn’t in some manner deeply distressed or disturbed.”

            Show me I am wrong

            Hello. Nice to meet you. Because here I am. The adult convert who was not suffering from distress or mental illness.

            The problem is, as it is with every argument you make, that you define the parameters.

            In your view, converting to Christianity as an adult is proof of mental illness. Then, you claim that mental illness could cause an adult to convert.

            And round and round we go.

          83. You forget your own testimony so soon, Wally?
            Remember, you labeled my father the Devil, did you not?
            Your entire Christian life is one that reflects some form of emotional instability.

            In your view, converting to Christianity as an adult is proof of mental illness.

            Mental illness, mental instability, emotional problems/immaturity. Choose your poison.
            Level-headed adults generally do not simply choose to become Christian for no apparent reason.
            There is inevitably something that pushes them into the arms of superstition.
            You never did reveal the whole story of your conversion, now did you?

          84. My testimony? Um…great, but that’s no proof of mental illness you moron. That’s a man living a normal like with normal sucky thinks happening.

            Um…the fact that you are a child of your father, the devil, isn’t really a reflection on my mental health. We are all children of God, or of the devil. The fact that you are fixated on that for almost 2 years now really shows that you might be the on with the loose connection in the head. Get over it LOL.

            Again. You made and assertion that only mental illness causes adult conversions, and that you have never met and adult convert who was not mentally ill.

            I say nice to meet you.

            Now, using something besides your own powerful declaration of mental illness, prove me wrong.

            Oh…and seriously. The conversion itself can’t be used as proof

            You sound like this:

            Only the mentally ill convert

            Conversion is a sign of mental illness

            Therefore only the mentally ill convert

            Really?

            Anyway back to the major point. Prove your assertion.

            Because, here I am all up in things, the very thing you deny having ever met.

            Nice to meet you.

          85. “I have NEVER encountered a born again christian or adult convert that wasn’t in some manner deeply distressed or disturbed.”

            This is what I wrote. It is a fact. I never have encountered one.
            However, if you re-converted because of some other reason, one based on sound logic involving no emotional upheaval, then feel free to offer your explanation and if it demonstrates my comments to be erroneous then I will apologise , no problems.
            Away you go ….

          86. Oh…so now it’s gone from being disturbed or deeply distressed to emotional upheaval.

            Re converted? Huh? what?

            You making stuff up again, Ark?

            Oh..you are referring to my reference to having always known there was a God? Yeah, I bet you are.

            I wasn’t a re-convert you moron.

            Just like you…I knew. The more I knew, the angrier I got. Your pathetic online flailings are amateur hour. I had the gumption to do my mocking of believes in person. You are a weak, bullying internet “warrior”

            Of course I knew there was a God.

            So do you.

            That’s why you keep coming back.

            But back to the assertion.

            I was not disturbed or deeply distressed at the time of my conversion; in fact, I was pretty “happy” overall.

            So, I suppose the burden is on you now that you have been shown to be wrong.

            Let’s turn the tables actually. I have yet to meet a rabid internet atheist who did not appear to be deeply disturbed, therefore they only became such because of mental illness.

            LOL

          87. Re converted? Huh? what?

            You recall you once said you were an atheist and you regretted bringing up your kids atheist. Not too long after you confessed that you were never really an atheist , having merely ”turned your back on Yahweh”.
            That was your first lie, wasn’t it?

            So in a sense you were never atheist, as you were always Christian – indoctrinated from when I can’t actually remember.

            I have a pretty good memory but your own particular delusion does not occupy my every waking hour, Wally.

          88. Well…

            LOL

            You also are an atheist how has turned his back on God.

            P.S. never said I was once a Christian.

            You lie so much you lose track

            LOL

          89. So you never said you were never really an atheist?
            I think your brain is addled.
            Go back to where you first put that stupid post on atheism and your kids and follow on from there and you will see …

            I was a cultural Christian, like most of my generation. Church of England. Baptized too!
            Even went to Sunday school and I won a KJV bible for passing a religious exam.
            I was once a King in a local nativity play when I was five or six?
            But a Christian in the sense of believing all the crap you beleive? lol…
            Young Earth Creationism and dinosaurs running around with humans. Adam and Eve, Noah’s ark a global flood and a literal Exodus?!
            Seriously, Wally only a dyed in the wool fucking moron would believe that nonsense.
            No sir. Not a chance in Hades.
            Even as kid I wasn’t that credulous.

          90. “So you never said you were never really an atheist?”

            Yes. I said that. It’s true

            Neither are you. You are just more stubborn and rebellious than most who reject the God they know exists.

          91. Hilarious!
            Don’t you have to admit to being a sinner and and a craven and beg for forgiveness and believe in Hell and Heaven?
            The character, Jesus of Nazareth is a narrative construct.
            Yahweh is part of a bronze age pantheon who had a wife.
            The Pentateuch is simply historical fiction and you, Wally, I am sorry to say, are an indoctrinated fool.

          94. Oh wow

            Calling me a fool has undone my faith.

            Well done

            Through the power of your logic you have convinced me there is no God

            Paste some more stuff

          96. Let me know if you want me to search the comments for any of Ark’s keywords. I’m challenging him to find a really good insult he hasn’t already used.

          98. In almost every case of adult conversion, I find permission for or access to sex to be the main driver. Our reasoning then tries to play catch-up and we get the ridiculous arguments we see today.

          99. If only you could convince Ark to be embrace his faith as you have embraced yours.

          101. I think it’s delightful that Tildeb has been trying out his new religion here. We’ll see if it’s better than ours. He has taken the important first step of admitting that he too makes faith claims.

          103. Well by his own admission, Wally was chasing a piece of skirt to church ….so, this seems to add credence to your statement, Tildeb.
            I imagine in most very close-knit conservative Christian communities, like any other religion, the average male will be looking to get laid and if that means go along to church, then so be it. He probably wouldn’t want to go blind, right?

            😉

          104. You’re a flailing moron, Ark.

            If all i wanted to do is get laid, church is that last place I would have gone

            Your fixation on the sex lives of believers is creepy

          105. You went back to church because you had the hots for some chick, yes?
            This was after your divorce if memory serves?
            So yes, in a sense, Tildeb is correct. You simply wanted to get laid …
            Fixation? Hilarious. To even think for one millisecond I would fixate on your sex life … shit!
            Now I will have nightmares for the next month.

          106. Wow..impressive

            You and Tiledeb do know every thing

            Even the thoughts and motivations of people they have never met

            And you say there is no god. Ya’ll are it since you are all knowing.

            Paste some more stuff, I’m bored now LOL

          107. So you deny you went back to church because of a woman?

            Well, I am pretty sure dinosaurs didn’t roam the earth with humans.
            You do realise, Wally even relatively normal Christians absolutely cringe with embarrassment when people like you state that this sort of thing is fact.

          108. Nope..I sure did do that. And I thank Him every day for her.

            And again…and again…and again…oh my gosh again. Quit throwing your stupid YEC accusation out there.

            I know you desperately want me to be one. But, I have yet to ever tell you that.

            Therefore you are a liar.

            Paste some more stuff. Or answer a question you were asked.

            What is it you hope to do here? Obviously your impotent flailings have not turned a believer such as me. I suspect John and Amanda are pretty safe also. According to you, nobody reads this blog…so the question begs and answer.

            Why are you here?

            Because you KNOW, that is why. You know, and are desperate to convince yourself by your raging that your rejection of God is okay.

            It’s not..

          109. I never lie. Unlike you, I am not a Christian. Must we go to James’ blog and dig around for the comment where you stated you leaned towards Y.E.C?
            Maybe you would kike to deny YEC after all and recognise the truth of evolution.
            After all, the inventors of your religion, the Catholics accept evolution so why don’t you?
            Or are you simply too embarrassed to admit your position in front of your fellow fundies?
            Oh, I have no illusions of making you understand why you are caught in a delusion.
            You are too full of hubris and ignorance to even consider you might be wrong. But others read, and there are plenty of people who have never heard about some of the stuff non believers impart here – the Human Genome Project, the truth of evolution the lies of the Flood and the Exodus.
            Why would I reject anything I have no belief in, especially one that is simply man made?
            That is a nonsensical idea.

            You are so utterly ridiculous in your adherence to this nonsense that there must be some really deep-seated, desperate yearning you are keeping buried inside.
            Maybe some guilt that you are hoping a reprieve from?
            Why do you slaver over a death cult religion, Wally?

          112. Quit sidestepping my question. We all know you don’t accept that.

            Despite your assurances to the contrary, I am not a moron

            Why do you reject freely offered grace?

          115. Seriously, I do not fully understand your question.
            If I accept the evidence you put forward that Jesus of Nazareth is a god, then what happens?
            If you can’t be specific then you can’t expect me to understand what you are telling me.

          116. Seriously

            You do understand it.

            Look, I don’t care if you answer or not.

            But I’m not playing interrogate the Christian with you.

            In fact, you have bored me more quickly than usual this time.

            Paste something, make it exciting

          117. Here I’ll answer for you

            I reject grace because despite the knowledge I was born with that God exists, I will persist in my relentless pursuit to prove that He is:

            Nonexistent
            A monster
            His followers suck

            Blah, blah, blah.

            Because I am my own god, and nobody is going to tell ME what to do, and I will answer to no one.

            See? Easy

          118. And this is why when I ask a genuine question you have no answer.
            You are corrupt, a fraud and simply an indoctrinated fool
            You have no understanding of your own doctrine or the scripture it is derived from.

          119. We’ve seen this before, too… BUT, I’m okay if you want to keep explaining, because it’s hilarious.

            Please list all the things a Christian must believe. It would be awesome! Go ahead and number them, to help Christians like Wally understand their own doctrine and Scripture…

          120. I already said that f you could demonstrate Jesus was the creator of the universe I would go to church. Your response. Redirect and deride.
            I asked Wally if I accept that Jesus is a god what happens next and after telling me for ages i am just rejecting your god he then responds with another insult.

            If you cannot make ant sort of reasonable answer then what answer do you expect from me?

          121. And I already said I don’t want you to go to church.

            You really think I’m over here, just desperate to turn you into a Christian?

            LOL!

            Maybe that has worked on other Christians before, but I’m not an idiot. You don’t need church. You need a new mind, and there’s nothing I can do to give you one.

          122. You are a bad as Wally.
            Denigrating atheists at every opportunity, yet when I ask what happens if I agree that based on the evidence Jesus was divine what happens next you STILL resort to denigration.

          128. You truly are a horrible individual, Amanda, do you realise that?
            Nasty, and quite disgusting.

            And most likely psychologically disturbed.

          129. Do you want me to link you to all the places you’ve called me nasty, disgusting, and disturbed?

            You can do better.

            Come on! Let me have it!

          131. Yes, why not. Link away. If others follow the links they will see why just how revolting a person you truly are.
            I’ll bet you can’t find more than two occasions.
            Off you go ..

          132. https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2016/11/11/this-from-a-white-non-trumper/comment-page-1/#comment-8319

            https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2016/12/03/tis-the-season-of-shame/comment-page-1/#comment-9222

            https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2017/01/12/two-things-to-tell-a-suicidal-person/comment-page-1/#comment-11363

            https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2017/01/28/pro-life-anti-sex/comment-page-1/#comment-11484

            https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2016/09/29/christians-please-quit-your-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-5853

            And many more!

            Just for you, buddy! 🙂

          135. “Show everyone just much a Christian…”
            Does Christianity forbid printers?
            Stop the madness!

          141. My theory is that atheism follows them into hell. They rage for eternity at the God they deny exists.

          148. I simply asked If I accepted tht Jesus of Nazareth was divine what nest? And at every turn you refuse to answer.
            You have no answer Wally.

          151. See…that’s the point

            You claim ultimate power to determine what evidence is.

            If you disagree, or a Christian provides it; it is not evidence.

            So, try again.

          153. Ark…that’s not the question.

            You have asked YOUR question to dozens of bloggers, dozens of times. You just want an opening to cut and paste your rejection again.

            Either answer or don’t. No prob

            Anybody want to tag in on this guy? Running in circles has made me dizzy

          158. So you have no answer? Even though you are commanded to make answer by scripture.
            You deny that all you have is faith,claim you have evidence, but never provide it.
            You make false claims, flaunt your ignorance as if it is some badge your god would praise you for.

            You are more lost than you could possible imagine…

          160. If there was no literal creation, and no literal garden, and no literal Adam and Eve…then there is….nothing. No Adam and Eve…….no fall into sin…..then no sin. No sin problem, then no need for Jesus, because if we aren’t sinners no need to any payment to be made. Frankly, without a literal creation, then the entire rest of the narrative unravels as well.

            Then we roll right back into we don’t need God, we don’t need Jesus. We just need to work hard and eventually we will evolve and change into something better.

            The Human Genome Project has demonstrated beyond any doubt that there was no Adam and Eve as per the bible.
            That means you entire reason for believing has been reduced to tatters.

            So, now, Wally, why do you beleive?

          162. And now you know why people think you are off your fucking rocker and why many ”normal”(sic) Christians cringe every time you either write this garbage or open your mouth and preach it…. and further evidence why you should not have access to teach this t kids.
            This crap to kids is nothing but a mind -fuck.
            Theological pedophilia.

          165. So, you gonna get mad at Amanda also when she says she still believes?

            Most of the normal Christians I run into are perfectly okay with me. You evidently are not LOL. I am so okay with that.

          166. You’ve literally SEEN a conversation between me and Wally take place about Creationism on this blog space. You still don’t believe him when he says he’s undecided.

            So, a “normal” Christian would be…? N.T. Wright? Or who?

          169. Well he does beleive in Evolution, and as the head of the church that invented Christianity I am more comfortable giving him the nod than someone like Wally or you…

          170. But the Pope changes every few decades–and not everyone is Catholic… So, is the Pope ALWAYS the benchmark of “normal” Christianity?

          172. I’m not asking about just the current Pope. I’m asking, does the Pope automatically become the benchmark of Christianity, no matter who he is? (There have been hundreds, you know…)

          175. Hmm

            Cursing and insult usually are the result in anger, at least among “normal” atheists.

            LOL, Ark. I am not answering any questions for you. You have a list of dozens you have left unaswered

            Now, John has asked me to drop you, so I shall

            I wish you little peace as you flail angrily against the God you know is there.

          176. Oh, Wally, I really don’t give a shit what you think or believe and am not so arrogant to think anything I say will have an effect on you.
            But others read …
            And It is such a fantastic quote to use to demonstrate just how sick and twisted fundamentalist Christians truly are.
            Your quote perfectly demonstrates how delusional/indoctrinated you are, without doubt.

            When someone wants to know why Creationism should not be taught in schools your quote should be read out loud every time.

            Science has already proved beyond doubt that the biblical tale of Adam and Eve is an impossibility, thus making the tale nothing but a piece of fiction.
            And this reduces your mindless adherence to this stupid false religion to tatters.
            It is a lie.

            So why do you beleive Wally?

            I think John suggests you ‘drop me” because he might be just a tad concerned you are going to shoot yourself in both feet!
            lol….

          177. You mention the supposed results of the HGC all the time–but you never bring up the person who led the team. (Francis Collins.) Why?

            I promise you–NO ONE except maybe Kevin or Tildeb is still reading this thread. Anyone else who sees 300+ comments thinks to themselves, “Oh, they must be toying with Ark again,” and they just skip the comment section.

            It’s a symptom of paranoia, or maybe delusions of grandeur, to think people want to listen to you interrogate Christians about “Science” vs. “Creationism” AGAIN!

          178. I presume anyone interested in science will already know that it was Collins, an evangelical Christian, who initially headed the project. I have mentioned his name on numerous occasions.
            I am surprised that so many Christians are generally unaware of the HGP or who Collins is.
            It matters not, one cannot hide the science.
            It destroys the Adam and Eve story outright and that makes Creationism nothing but garbage , and by extension, Christianity, as aptly demonstrated by Wally’s comment.

            Why don’t you email Wally and explain a little reality to him, Amanda?
            Do the bloke a favour?

          180. Are you stating that the Human Genome project as disproven the existence of God? A creator God is what Creationism means you moron. Are you stating the your precious project has proven Him to not exist?

            If Amanda wants to reprimand me for my beliefs, she can do it right here. I am a big boy and can take it.

            Funny how when you realize you have failed to make sense you immediately look for a way to turn Christians against each other.

            I hope seeing your own faith unravel into tatters is not too painful.

          181. Listen up, Dickhead. You stated that without a literal interpretation of Genesis then one might as well kick Christianity into touch.

            The HGP has demonstrated beyond any doubt whatsoever that the biblical tale of Adam and Eve is nothing but a work of fiction.
            Therefore … according to you Christianity is the crock of shit it truly is.

            ”If there was no literal creation, and no literal garden, and no literal Adam and Eve…then there is….nothing. No Adam and Eve…….no fall into sin…..then no sin. No sin problem, then no need for Jesus, because if we aren’t sinners no need to any payment to be made. Frankly, without a literal creation, then the entire rest of the narrative unravels as well.

            Then we roll right back into we don’t need God, we don’t need Jesus.

            Your words …

            Your religion is lie.

          182. “The HGP has demonstrated beyond any doubt whatsoever that the biblical tale of Adam and Eve is nothing but a work of fiction.” –Francis Collins.

            Nope, wait, sorry! That quote is from Ark… Sometimes I get the two mixed up.

          183. Ooooh … are we getting just a bit frightened because of the truth Amanda?

            You get a lot of things mixed up…
            So are you going to tell Wally he is wrong about Adam and Eve?

          184. I don’t know exactly what Wally believes about Adam and Eve…

            And I’m going to wait until a “normal” scientist explains the various theories to me. No credible scientist has EVER said, “Mapping the genome proves Christianity is a crock of shit.” That’s something only crazy, Fundamentalist Atheists say.

          186. That’s partly because the HGP doesn’t “say” anything. It’s not an arch-angel from God, so it doesn’t literally speak.

            The HGP was just a project to map the genes in a human’s DNA. After that, the interpretation of the results went up for grabs. (And, interpreting data with perfect certainty is what Fundamentalist Atheists do best.)

            What’s funny is: the Adam and Eve thing is only tangentially related to the HGP. Scientists have taken the genome information and used it (along with math estimates and different theory models) to conduct a bunch of experiments. Some experiments conclude Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosome Adam lived thousands of years apart. Others show they could be contemporaries.

            In other words: who knows?

            The scientists don’t know. So, if you want certainty, then always ask a Fundamentalist…like Ark. 🙂

          187. JB, this is probably the part of the project that mapped out population genetics and showed beyond any reasonable doubt that the smallest number of humans all of us are related to was about 12,000. Not two. Never two. And this fact is beyond any doubt based on actual genetic knowledge. Of course Collins knows this, which is why he co-founded BioLogos…. a web site originally designed and staffed to try to convince evangelical wingnuts like Wally that evolution is factually true if our understanding of biology and the Great Synthesis with genetics is to make any sense at all.

            Of course, Collins was later voted out by the Board of Biologos once their funding was taken over by the Southern Baptists who are biblical literalists andof course creationists. Now BioLogos is just another wingnut creationist web site that lies and deceives in the name of protecting the lie that we are descended from two individuals…. a belief contrary to and in conflict with reality because the belief in a literal Adam and Eve is held in spite of overwhelming evidence from reality and through convincing evidence derived from the HGP that we are not. Unequivocally not. Indisputably not… unless our understanding of genetics is flat out wrong and all those applications, therapies and technologies that work for everyone everywhere all the time does so for entirely different reasons… reasons that creationists do not possess to justify their contrary beliefs in this matter.

            This is simply a a case of a religious belief that is wholeheartedly incompatible with science, with evidence, with reality… and yet parroted by people like you guys and then taught to children as if equivalently true to evolution and genetics. It’s reprehensible deception… in the name of upholding parental ignorance, stupidity, and superstitious belief about our fundamental biology. Creationism in this matter is an unmistakable and intentional lie.

          188. Hey, Tildeb:

            No one like a preacher who never wants to learn.
            Someone who just wants to pop in and be listened to, without question, is otherwise known as “annoying.”

            So, here’s a question you won’t answer: if there is NO DOUBT that there were ever less than 12,000 ancestors, where can I go to confirm that? Seems to me, the only people making such radical claims are the “no-content” Atheists on the internet.

          190. Dear Leader thinks that if he ignores our questions about faith from earlier that we’re going to forget about them.

          191. Poor thing.

            He’s not QUITE to Ark’s level of crazy yet (because he knows when to stop talking).

            But he doesn’t have any more actual knowledge about “reality” than Ark does.

          193. The new claim is that life sprung out of the slimy pit MULTIPLE times. (No, seriously.)

            We hit the biological lottery again and again and again.

            Earth is so finely tuned for human existence, that now God-deniers have convinced themselves its a veritable Life Machine. It churns out complex living organisms over and over and over and over and over…. (with no mindful help).

          195. Honestly, I don’t know exactly what the current, trendy theory is. Last I heard, they think they were able to trace origins back to a single male and a single female, but they lived thousands of years a part. (And, again, the question goes: how did they continue the species? They must have mated somehow?) But, I think they believe that certain lines died out.

            So, yes.

            Multiple “Adams” and “Eves.”

          197. I am, too. And so is Collins, from what I understand.

            However, we can’t stay on that track very long before we get derailed by all the reasons “BioLogos” is a stupid organization that doesn’t accept reality… (It bears mentioning, I’d never even heard of BioLogos before the Atheists started jabbering about it. So, they need to step up their indoctrination game.)

          202. Also the “applications, therapies, and technologies” being developed thanks to genome mapping, which “work for everyone everywhere all the time” have nothing to do with the number of ancestors we may or may not have had.

            That is simply a case of religious belief, being peppered with the word “science,” and then popularized through repetition by wannabes (Left-Wingnuts) on internet forums.

          203. Yes you do, Amanda. I quoted him and he said ”Yep”, so don’t lie.
            He believes in a literal reading of Genesis.

            Go read anything by Collins or his team or anyone else working on the HGP.

            The biblical tale of Adam and Eve is fiction, thus, according to Wally, Christianity has failed. It is utterly meaningless.
            As it always was …

            The truth is such a bitch, isn’t it Amanda?

          207. Think about this …

            “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.” – Carl Sagan

          208. Sagan isn’t a good example of a normal scientist. (Neither is Coyne.)

            I don’t agree with Wally that Genesis must be literal… And I also don’t agree with you that the HGP topples all of Christianity.

            But, please keep repeating it. My dad is sick to death of you, and it’s kind of fun to annoy him sometimes. 🙂

            Now, I’m curious: I’ve heard you (and other Atheists) suggest that PAUL was the one who invented Christianity. But now you’re saying it was the Catholic Church. The Catholics teach that Peter–not Paul–was the first “Pope.”
            So… was Peter a normal Christian? Or Paul? Or are they both “normal?”

          209. I don’t agree with Wally that Genesis must be literal

            Thank you. All I wanted to read.

            And I also don’t agree with you that the HGP topples all of Christianity.

            I didn’t say it did topple Christianity. What a stupid thing to say.

            As for the history of Christianity, you are way too indoctrinated to appreciate anything.
            Ask your church pastor or whatever they are called where you go to prey pray.

          211. I see you struggle with comprehension as well…
            Although somehow I think you are simply be obtuse as it is an integral part of your nature.
            Haven’t you got nappies to change or something, or is grandad babysitting today?

          212. I don’t struggle with comprehension. Babies are still asleep, so I have plenty of time for you to explain your definition of a normal Christian.

            I asked, “Peter or Paul or both?” And you told me to ask my pastor. LOL!

            So, was Paul a normal Christian?

          213. You can let Ark know that I’m driving home today after two nights as a successful Evangelical comedian

          216. (I think it’s JZ who is most concerned with your status as a “successful evangelical comedian” isn’t it? Ark will only care if you’ve picked up a few more followers to add to the 15,000… and I saw that you had.) 😀

          221. I answered, or did you not understand my response?
            (Maybe we can push this thread to its comment limit? Just for fun? What say you?)

            I was thinking, Amanda,regarding Wally’s literal interpretation of Genesis and Adam and Eve.
            As he is a rank YEC and being obliged to ”Witness for Christ”, would you feel perfectly happy with him indoctrinating your kids about a literal Adam and Eve and all that encompasses ; ”inherited sin” , etc at his Sunday School?
            Under the circumstances It would probably be fair to say he shares a similar view as ”The Cage”, regarding Hell, or at least along these lines, even if he would be too embarrassed to admit it.
            Knowing of course that this could undermine your own teaching/beliefs on this issue and the risk of such vulnerable kids coming home and telling you that you were going to Hell because you did not beleive in a literal Adam and Eve?
            Honestly, would this make you in the least bit uncomfortable, or would you be happy allowing someone like Wally lie to your children in such a manner, even though he might well beleive it is true to the core of his being?

          222. I didn’t read the part where you started talking about Wally again.

            This isn’t about Wally. And, no, you didn’t answer my question about whether Paul or Peter (or both) are normal Christians.

            I’m trying to figure this out, so I know who I’m being compared with! If I’m not a normal Christian, then is Paul? Or Peter (whom the Catholics calll the first Pope)? Or both?

          225. ”The character Paul, normal?
            Are you kidding?”

            Oh, you’re not normal, period.

            So would you feel comfortable leaving your kids to be indoctrinated by a YEC like Wally?
            I mean, let’s be honest now, that type of revolting doctrine is little more than ”Theological Pedophilia”; a complete mind -fuck.
            Would you really want your children exposed to such vile doctrine?
            Surely not?

          226. No–I never let my children spend ANY time with people who disagree with me about anything.

            EVER.

            I tell them, “Kids, if you hear anyone tell you something different from what Mommy says, run away! FAST!”

            And we sing a song that goes like this: “Whatever Mommy believes is right. If you hear someone tell you something else, it’s a lie.”

            It doesn’t rhyme, but it gets the point across.

          228. Yes…but would you let Wally INDOCTRINATE your kids? (That’s literally the question he’s asking now. LOL!)

            Yes or no?

            Yes or no?!?!

          229. Well, he could try to indoctrinate them. The challenge is that they are critical thinkers. They tend to ask a lot of questions.

          230. I would LOVE those kids. Contrary to what Ark thinks, there are many who encourage critical thinking when teaching young people. I happen to teach the young teens(7th, and 8th), on Sunday night. I want to talk about these things with them. I try to expose them to ideas counter out our own. How else will they ever be ready to deal with stone headed Egyptian gods? it’s important that folks have some real clue why they believe what they believe.

          231. I was in 8th grade the first time I was exposed to the abortion debate. It was my fundamentalist, young-earth-creationist teacher who asked me, “But what about fetuses who are going to die anyway? And what if the pregnancy will kill its mother?”

            She never did give us the “right” answer… but I remember how uncomfortable it made me. I remember how much it made me think. Keep it up! You are giving those students a far more broad education than they’re likely to get in most other places.

          232. Funny, we were just talking about that last week, abortion. Not sure how we got there really. And right now my class on only boys. I was a good discussion. A very frank discussion about their responsibility in this area.

            But, that is veering way off track LOL. Sorry.

          233. A good (devil’s advocate) question for the boys might be: “How can you talk about any of this stuff when you are not, and never will be, pregnant?” And, maybe follow up with, “Is it our place to judge anyone?” (Then you can go down another tangential rabbit trail. lol.) I love conversations with kids that age. They are so much smarter than many people give them credit for.

          234. Exactly! They are much smarter. And really like sponges. It’s an honor to have them.

            As to the remark about teaching this morning? No, sadly only at night LOL.

            I used to teach morning and night, but work got all in the way, and I had to give up morning.

          235. The statement of the Year award goes to…. Wally!

            ” it’s important that folks have some real clue why they believe what they believe.”

            Wow.

            Just… wow!

          238. It’s not important at all for religious believers to have any clue about the truth value of their religious beliefs. To be a believer, one must start by first believing it to be true. If it were important for a believer to have a clue (and not just as a means to get laid), the religious belief would come AFTER examining the evidence to support it. Obviously such a requirement would be utterly self-defeating and fatal for any and all faith-based beliefs. That’s why faith is the essential ingredient you ‘teach’ and not respect for evidence. If evidence were necessary to ground the compelling reasons used for the belief – having a clue in your vernacular – then one wouldn’t need faith at all.

            You do not advocate for getting rid of faith, do you, Wally? In fact and deed, you work very hard promoting it… especially to the most vulnerable among us.

            This is why your statement is so absurd: you are unaware of just how naive, credible, and gullible one must be to first fuel a belief with truth – ’cause that’s what people like Wally and Amanda and John tell children to do if they wish to be moral, if they wish to be good people – and THEN try to gather rationalizations for it while ignoring any and all contrary evidence. That’s what you’re teaching kids to do, to learn how NOT to think well, how NOT to be reasonable and skeptical, how NOT to be good critical thinkers. If you taught any of those, then the religious beliefs would wither and die. That’s what you work against.

            This statement of yours demonstrates why you abuse the emotional and psychological welfare of children by teaching them your lies and deceptions as if they were true FIRST – sacrificing intellectual integrity and respect for reality – and then pass along apologetic rationalizations as if ‘arming’ them for a world populated with a growing segment of reasonable and skeptical people who are not so credible, not so gullible, not so unwilling to first assume beliefs are true that are incompatible with reality as you.

            That you are so blissfully unaware of the harm you cause to vulnerable children with such an absurd statement is why I think it is deserving of statement of the year. You can’t get any more ignorant and blind than what you’ve demonstrated here. That’s a ‘gift’ that religious belief bestows: astounding and intentional ignorance and deceit masquerading as good intentions. That’s what you personify.

          239. Hey, Tildeb, here’s another question you haven’t answered:

            What’s the difference between when a religious person starts with “belief” and a scientist starts with a “hypothesis?”

          240. By the way, Wally said no such thing about teaching kids FIRST, and then gathering rationalizations… Actually, we were talking about how we like to ask young people QUESTIONS in order to find out what they— oh, wait. That’s your problem, right? I forgot that you are threatened by questions… (“Questions do not a critical thinker make.”) LOL!

            Tell me, do you think it’s child-abuse to ask kids questions? (Oops…another question. I’m sorry for abusing you with my inquiries, Dear Leader. I’ll try not to question your brilliance again.)

          241. Pleonasm: An army of words accompanying a corporal of thought.

            Honestly, you lost me with your first statement when you told me what was important to ME.

            Pretty sure I have a good handle on what is important to ME.

            That’s the last thing I’ll waste my time on with you, as beating my toes with a hammer would offer more benefit to me.

            But, peace.

          249. Lol! If we actually lived close enough, I might overrule that. Kids need to be exposed to mental illness at some point.
            (But, I’d have them throw out the candy.) 😉

          250. You’re getting quite good at sarcasm.Kudos

            Then do I understand correctly you would be perfectly okay exposing your kids to ”theological pedophilia” a la The Cage etc , the nature of which is often indoctrinated into kids?
            You would be happy for Wally to indoctrinate your children, yes?

          251. Verse #2:
            Mommy’s opinions are best and true.
            Everything else is a lie.
            The only person whose words are more true,
            Is Uncle Ark, who is always right.

          252. Fair enough.
            I know you actually cringe a little when Wally spouts his Creationist nonsense. As we all should. when any YEC gets going.

            Imagine those poor kids at his Sunday School?
            THAT is very, very creepy.
            A serious mind fuck

          253. It’s creepy to expose kids to ideas their parents may not agree with?

            To me, what’s creepy is that you have adult children, who apparently don’t know that some people believe the earth was created? (By the way, I agree with Wally about that. The earth was Created. How long ago is the only question.)

          254. Really? And which adult children would these be?

            I would imagine that thanks to social media a great many more people are fully aware of the ridiculous nonsense of creationism than ever before.
            You trawl Facebook, you tell me?

            I would venture that most normal young people today are/would be horrified by the full extent of the complete mind-fuck that YEC is to young kids.
            Ask a deconvert how they felt when they were trapped in this vile doctrine?

            (By the way, I agree with Wally about that. The earth was Created. How long ago is the only question.)

            Ah … but this is where the wheels fall off, because Wally’s ilk consider if you do not beleive in a literal understanding of the bible you are destined to burn in hell: you are not, in fact, a proper Christian. According to the hard-liners.
            So, basically, you are metaphorically screwed, and pandering to Wally’s Whims will not win you grace in the ”Eyes of the Lord” as far as they are concerned. It’s burning in Hell for you, I’m afraid.

          255. I promise you, most normal people are MUCH more horrified by rambling mentally ill folks than by Young Earth Creationists (of which, Wally insists he isn’t one).

            But, it’s okay. I’m not afraid of psychological disorders, so I’ll make sure my kids are exposed to EVERYBODY.

            You said “normal” again! Can you give me one example of a “normal” young person, please? Your kids, whom you sent to a religious school?

          256. Well. Actually, I don’t insist I am not one. I just don’t know for sure. As Ark said, I lean that way. But, as you have repeatedly pointed out, I haven’t figured out everything yet, and an quite open to reasonable discussion with anybody.

          257. No, Wally is on record as saying he leans toward Young Earth Creationism.
            If he denies saying this he is a liar.

            Ah, well, mine went to a Catholic School where religious education is optional and there are Hindus, Muslims, and several other religions represented. And these days the kids have lessons about many of the world’s religions so I have heard.
            South Africa is quite progressive in this respect.
            However, in those days, I was unaware of much of the insanity you represent, so it didn’t bother me. And knowing the school, as I do, and having done voluntary work there for years, I am reasonably au fait with the curriculum, and, of course, they teach Evolution. Which would be anathema to you and Wally, of course.
            But as the Catholics pretty much invented your religion they probably feel obliged to teach
            some truth.

            Ironically mentally ill and Young Earth Creationism could well be synonymous, and such people are clamoring to have Creationism taught in schools are they not?

          259. They even went through Catechism, and Baptism, the whole nine yards.
            They’ve outgrown it.
            As I mentioned I was actually completely unaware of Young Earth Creationists or anyone who did not believe in Evolution in those days.
            I mean it when I say that I had no idea fanatical idiots like you existed. I say that in all honesty, Amanda.
            I was gobsmacked as the urban slang goes.
            I thought there were just Catholics and Protestants and the closest I became aware of religious in-fighting was the Northern Ireland troubles, which pretty much ended before I left home.
            I only had my eyes opened to the type of religious lunacy prevalent in your country and from people like you and your dad and Wally after I had to do some background research for a fantasy novel I began writing.
            I needed some history on Moses, who I thought was a real person, and when I could not find anything I then began to wonder what else was fiction.
            Then I researched and studied and read the bible.
            And eventually I came across idiots like you lot.

            Even now, I occasionally get the wind knocked out of my sails by some of the things Christians believe.
            The Cage is a typical example of why such people should never be allowed access to children.
            That is child abuse pure and simple.
            There is no dispute and it should be dealt with by law.

          261. Absolutely correct, Amanda! Guilty as charged.
            I was unaware … or willfully ignorant if you prefer.
            Perhaps you now see what even passive cultural indoctrination will make you accept as the norm?

            However, they were taught from a scientific/evolution perspective so they didn’t come home ranting like you and your old man.
            There was none of this Original Sin shit or YEC etc.
            And as I said, they grew out of it.

            So tell me, now that you are aware, what possible excuse do you have for teaching lies to your kids?

          265. Are you asking if I consider myself to be normal ( Rational, well-balanced, law abiding etc) or are you asking if my views on atheism are normal?

          266. I’m trying to figure out what you mean, when you start ranting about normal vs. crazy.

            You have a lot of opinions about which Christians are okay to let your children learn from and which ones are totally psycho (like me and my old man and Wally). So, I’m trying to figure out whether there’s a benchmark normal Atheist, like the Pope is the benchmark normal Christian.

          267. Tildeb is the only person qualified to answer that question. Ark can’t say for sure.

          270. On my blog, he admitted he would make rape legal, if he thought it would make rapes happen less. He would actually tell rapists, “It’s okay. It’s your choice to force sex on others.” As long as, pragmatically, he could tell himself it’s for the better…

            So–he’s sort of all over the place when it comes to laws. But I already knew he thought rape and murder were sinful.

          272. There is only atheism. It has no variable standard as far as I am aware.
            There are not 30-40,000 different cults of atheism, for example.
            Do you actually understand what atheism is, Amanda?
            If you would like a dictionary definition, then Google is your friend.
            Knock yourself out.

          273. We’ve had the “dictionary definition of Atheism” conversation before, and it was hilarious. The dictionary says Atheism is the doctrine of unbelief in God, remember?

            But you’re changing the subject (again). Racing thoughts?

            In your view, were the people who educated your children “normal” Christians?

          274. ”The dictionary says Atheism is the doctrine of unbelief in God, remember?”

            And this is exactly the atheist I am., Amanda.

            In your view, were the people who educated your children “normal” Christians?

            From what I recall, most of the teachers were not in any noticeable way religious at all. I couldn’t answer honestly one way or another.

          275. You keep changing your story there, Arky. Were your kids given a “religious education” or not?
            Were they taught the Catechism and baptized or not?

            And, if so, then was that a NORMAL Christian education, or a really f–ed up one?

          276. No, I have not changed my story at all.
            I have been completely honest with you as far as memory serves,
            The school is run by the Marist Brothers.
            The education is secular and specific religious education is optional, though I understand that these days lessons are given on world religions.
            As my wife is Catholic ( in name only) the children were baptized ( my son was baptized in a beautiful ancient church overseas).
            They were taught Catechism though I cannot recall if they completed it all. I know they went on a camp in 10th or 11th grade?
            Could have been earlier.

            All religious education is fucked up, as it is based upon lies.
            But I have been open and honest, I was guilty of being unaware in those days.
            I have admitted as such.
            If I knew then what I know now I might well have approached the religious aspects differently.
            As it turned out, my children have no interest in religion at all and for all intent and purpose seem to be atheist.
            So I have no worries on this score.

          277. Do your kids know that you sent them to a school that, in your words, fucks with children’s minds? Do they know that you were completely detached from most of what they learned? Do they know you’re a raving mad man, on the internet?

          278. There’s no Eternal damnation for not believing in God either right? God is just as fictional is Santa Claus.

          279. More importantly: there ARE consequences for not believing in Santa! (No presents.) So, if Ark cares about the children he ought to go blow the lid off the Santa hoax every chance he gets. 🙂

          280. My point was that they’re both imaginary so I don’t understand why he gets worked up about either one.

          283. I’m not totally qualified to deliver that sermon, because I’m not Tildeb.

            But, from what I understand, NO, imaginary things aren’t true. And THAT’S the truth we need to tell everyone.

            We need to strap them in a chair and make them listen to us (and make sure they don’t hear anything Wally says)–to ensure that the truth about the non-existence of God and Santa is proclaimed.

          284. So you’re saying we need to strap them into a chair and educate them that indoctrination is evil?

          286. Ark wants me to help him “get through” to you and Wally, now that he has had success getting through to an ingrate like me… So I’ll ask him how I should go about converting the two of you…

          287. I actually don’t believe in Liverpool. I think the whole thing is just a setup to sell alcohol. It cheats morons out of their money!

          290. Ah .. you can’t get a rise when I tell the truth and so now you resort to your usual idiocy. So funny ..
            I recall reading a comment on one of the posts on your own blog where someone stated you needed Mental Health!
            Seems I am not the only one who has noticed how screwed up you truly are.

            Oh, on a brighter not, Liverpool won yesterday. They beat Tottenham 2-0.
            My mate in Cyprus now owes me six (more) beers!

          291. Those weren’t rhetorical questions. You don’t even KNOW whether your children identify as “Atheist” or some sort of religion? Yikes.

          294. Are you just taking a long time to respond to my question about guilt, or are you skipping it?

            I linked to this part of the conversation in the newest post, so everyone can see that you believe in sin. 🙂

          297. Hehehe… I saw that.

            Also: he didn’t know people as crazy as US existed! (People who believe in Original Sin.) But, I’m pretty sure that comes from Catholicism–like the Pope–whom Ark calls a “normal” Christian.

            I’m really struggling to figure out which Christians are regular-crazy, and which ones are REALLY, really, really crazy (like us).

          298. Well, now we have it.

            Your arguments are so pathetic and weak that you have to have a law to back up your rejection.

            Got it.

            LOL.

          299. It’s the village mob, taking their own fundamentalism to Witch Hunt levels.
            I wrote about it a couple years ago.

            There is a growing number of people (like Ark) who are using children as props to make themselves feel moral. Even though most of them claim Morality is just an illusion. It’s very backward, but sometimes they ARE successful in taking kids away from loving parents.

            Link: https://culturesatwar.wordpress.com/2015/06/03/when-the-village-wants-to-take-your-child/

          300. Hi, Wally.
            There should be a law against the type of indoctrination kids are subject to that is reflected in something such as The Cage, which is simply unadulterated child abuse.
            If you concur with such doctrine then there should be enforceable measures to protect children from people like you.

          302. No. Has Thor been legally erased? Or Osiris? They even make movies of Thor these days.
            People simply don’t consider him real anymore.
            And so it shall eventually be with your god, Yahweh, Wally.

            What I am saying is that kids deserve t o be kept away from theological pedophilia.

            Such doctrine is lies but kids believe it and when adults like you beleive it as well then this is where the serious fuck up begins.
            So yes, if you beleive this rubbish you should be legally restrained from teaching it to kids in public.
            ( Sadly there is no way to reasonably prevent this stuff from being taught to kids in private. Education will eventually see to this, but it will take time.)

          303. I’ve had many grown adults lie to my kids about the existence of Santa. Is that ideological pedophilia? Should it be against the law for parents to trick their kids into belief in Santa?

          304. There are mixed feelings with this, in fact.
            I have also seen evidence where kids were traumatized by the whole Visiting Santa at the Grotto business, so without doubt it can have a negative effect.
            We never taught our kids about Santa -my wife is not English and her culture is not big on the Santa Claus thing – so it never occurred to me to be concerned.
            And I don’t recall it ever being much of a big thing when I was kid either.
            If you were to ask me straight, I’d say teach the truth, as it might save a certain amount of problems with issues later.

          305. So–since it doesn’t affect you personally–then you don’t care?

            Sound the alarm! Start speaking against the damage of lying to kids about Santa! (Call it “pedophilia” and tell people there ought to be a law.)

            Why the double standard?

          306. You think Arky would be on the side of that preacher guy at the mall who was yelling at those parents not to take their kids to see Santa?

          307. Apparently! (Well, he wouldn’t agree with the part where he talked about Jesus. But he would agree with telling the truth about Santa, I think!)

            Here’s the video for those who haven’t seen it:

          308. I said I beleive it better if it was not taught as ”real”, and parents be open. After all the fun is really only for the parent’s benefit, is it not?
            Furthermore, there is no eternal damnation for not believing in Santa is there?

            I imagine if there were enough case of serous trauma then possibly something might well be done about it.

          309. Kids are told they will not receive presents from Santa, if they are misbehave. So, I assume you’ll be rescuing children from the indoctrination of Santa now…

          310. I never encountered this among any of our friends.
            Probably because my wife comes from a different cultural background where this crap is not considered normal.

          311. So, teaching kids to believe in Santa isn’t normal.

            Got it.

            I’m learning a lot about “normal” vs. “crap” from you today.

            I appreciate it! 🙂

          312. My pleasure. I don’t normally have much success getting through to ingrates or idiots so your willingness to understand is really such a joy to behold.
            Perhaps you could talk to Wally and your dad?

          313. Well, you still haven’t actually answered my questions about specifically which views are normal and which are crazy. So I’d have a hard time explaining it to them. (At this point, you’ve just given me a list of the Christians you find crazy, and you’ve given me ONE–the Pope–who is normal-level crazy.)

            But, if I’ve been moved to the “normal Christian” category, I’ll try my best to convert Wally and my dad!

          315. Wait–if Wally or my dad asks “What did the Human Genome Project accomplish?” what should I tell them? What would a NORMAL Christian say?

          317. No–when I did that, you called me all sorts of nasty names. YOU are the one who (apparently) decides what a “normal” Christian says/does, and what a really crazy one says/does.
            So you have to tell me!

          321. He’s pretty unhinged today. I’m expecting a really long, profanity-ridden, stream of nonsense. (It’s too early in S.A. to try and end the conversation with crickets. He’d be alone with his thoughts too long.)

          322. Where are his atheist Pals? Why don’t they come to his rescue? Are they embarrassed?

          323. YES!
            His kids, too, I’d imagine… If they found out that Dad has no explanation for his belief in right/wrong… or that he puts blind faith in (certain) scientist… or that he doesn’t even BOTHER TO READ the best Christian thinkers, straight from their own mouths…. or that he’d legalize rape, all while claiming that Wally and I are the ones doing damage.

            Yikes.

          324. The other atheists do the same thing. Why are they embarrassed when Ark does it?

          325. Ark has a style that makes the insanity harder to hide. 🙂

            Tildeb better get in here and bury the point under 50 tons of text, quickly! Clarity is the enemy!

          331. “Indoctrinated, fundamentalist fool.” –https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2015/08/05/why-i-dont-want-planned-parenthood-to-receive-tax-money/comment-page-1/#comment-11522
            “Monkey.” –https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2016/11/29/united-for-division/comment-page-1/#comment-8872
            “Ridiculous, STUPID, indoctrinated woman” –https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2017/02/06/why-bad-things-happen-to-good-folks/comment-page-1/#comment-12193
            “Ignorant, indoctrinated, fucking idiot” –https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2017/02/06/why-bad-things-happen-to-good-folks/comment-page-1/#comment-12185

            Shall I go on?

            http://www.relatably.com/m/img/innocent-girl-memes/qts3z.jpg

          333. I don’t mind. The last comment I will link is the one that literally started this part of the thread: “I don’t usually have so much success getting through to idiots and ingrates.” So–since I’m an idiot and ingrate when I think for myself, I’ll just need to let him think for me…

          334. Oh, good grief, I truly am so terribly sorry. You seem to have completely misunderstood.
            Those aren’t nasty names, but character descriptions.

          335. Yeah–

            So, whenever I think for myself, you categorize me as an “idiot/ingrate.”

            That’s why you’ll have to tell me everything to teach my kids (and Dad and Wally). You know the difference between “normal” and “crazy.” So you’ll just have to tell me what that is.

            And you can let everyone on the next post know what you do when you feel guilty for your sins, too!

          338. Those who believe in creationism are highly correlated to AGW climate denialism, anti-choice, death penalty, anti-sex education, supporting and voting for Trump, practitioners of overt racism and misogyny, and tend to be of lower education attainment and of lower economic stature. They also tend to have larger families and utilize more government support than average.

          342. Did you see his comment to me? Heretic is going to be HIS line! He’s going to call me a heretic, and I’m supposed to say, “I won’t let me kids near Wally.”

            All is going according to script. 🙂

          343. As long as you guys have a big fight in front of Arc that’s all that matters.

          345. Okay

            Enough is enough.

            Amanda you are, in fact, a raging heretic for failing to agree with me. Not because you are wrong necessarily, but simply for disagreeing. As a good fundamentalist Baptist, and keeper of the Faith and proper doctrine, I renounce you!

            How’s that?

          346. Well, I don’t know whether you’re wrong, either!
            But–I DO know that I only let my children listen to people who Ark deems “normal.” Therefore, don’t come near any of us, you crazy, YEC fool!

            🙂

          347. We must be very important Amanda. I suspect Ark thinks that you and I maybe not walking in lockstep on something will be the undoing of God.

            Oh, the power we wield

          348. That’s because I’ve never (ever) seen our current batch of Atheist trolls disagree with each other here… even when Ark was dangerously close to admitting he doesn’t understand most of what Tildeb says. He couldn’t bring himself to say it. 🙂

            They depend on religious people fighting over not-very-important stuff, in order to make Atheism seem more appealing.

            But I’m just interested in the Truth. Anyone else who’s also interested in the Truth can be on my team, even if it’s a Biblical literalist… or even an Atheist! The problem is, Atheists like Ark have a personal problem with calling the Truth “God,” so they stop working for the team and start attempting to cause division instead.

          349. It’s funny. The term “literal” gets tossed around a lot, and the irony is that within the parameters of that word, there is a LOT of room.

            Just to clear the air, the following is straight from the Doctrinal Statement of the work I am part of.

            “We believe in the Genesis account of Creation.”

            There is much room in that statement, exactly where I fall within the parameters of that is still being worked on. I may always be working on it. It’s not a big deal.

            And as far as them not agreeing. That’s very odd. Meaning, I find it odd that a content free system is populated by people who all say the same thing. It’s almost like doctrine LOL.

            Faith! They have faith!

          350. Right, as we’ve discussed before, there are many compelling evidences for the word “day” meaning “era” (or millions of years). But, there’s also an interesting theory that creation could have taken seven, 24-hour days from God’s perspective, which would have taken much, much longer on earth.
            Or he could have created the Universe to just seem old. (Though, personally, I don’t think He would have a reason to trick or mislead us. I think he gave us science and a hunger to solve mysteries because he wanted us to figure this out…)

            Anyway, one thing we can completely agree about: Ark has no idea what he is talking about most of the time. I enjoy listening to lectures, and then letting the various Theorists make their cases. But, I do NOT enjoy listening to God-deniers preach their personal faith. 🙂

          352. Absolutely! LOL! That would be hilarious!

            And I’ll tell him that I’d never let my children get within 100 feet of someone who disagrees with me about Genesis.

          353. Of course it is. And the can be your mantra for all of eternity as you wave your fist angrily at God..

            It was a lie God!

            It was a lie God!

            It was lie God!

            He..knock yourself out.

            The evidence of God is right in your face.

            We know of Him, but the things that are created.

            And

            Are

            Without excuse

            You have no excuse, Ark..

            Only the ones in your mind

            Have a nice day.

          355. Well I understand your atheist bent if that’s how you choose to understand the Gospel, because guilt and fear are not the purpose of it. Anyone indoctrinating someone out of fear, shame, guilt, or what have you is emotionally manipulating. However you will admit that guilt and fear does exist in people—Christian or non. The Gospel preached correctly does not invoke those feelings but rather expels them.

            I don’t deny there are deconverts, but I would dare to say that many of them left Christianity because of some of its bad examples, and/or kinds of doctrine that use Scripture like a hammer.

            You’re welcome to presume whatever you like about the reason for my faith, but I’ve not shared it because you wouldn’t believe it anyway. I don’t like casting my pearls before swine, but I’m also not ashamed of why I believe, so here it is: I believe in God because I know that He loves me, TRULY loves me for who I am, not for what I do or don’t do. I love Him because my faith is a relationship with Someone who knows me better than I know myself, is interested in every aspect of my life, and gives me the wisdom, strength and peace I couldn’t get on my own to live it. Guilt and condemnation have nothing to do with it. I know that perfection exists because I have a conscience, but believing in God means I believe in His perfection instead of relying on myself. Any other religion in the world depends on human behaviour and their obedience to rules. Christianity in its truest form means God did everything for us.

            But you can’t reconcile this kind of God to your pet favourite genocidal maniac, so I waste my words. I’m going back to my awesome life, because my life comes from the Creator of life, and it’s awesome. You should get one.

          356. Prediction: Ark will say “But how do you KNOW that stuff is true?!”

            And round and round and round we go…

            Honestly, I’d rather argue with a colorblind person who thinks those of us who can see “green” are just indoctrinated.

          358. Good news is, I got a blog post out of it that I’ll publish either tomorrow or the next day.

            I have a new theory that color blindness is a HOAX! People aren’t really “blind,” because there’s no such thing as color in the first place…

            So, color-blind people are actually rational, while the color-seeing people have been indoctrinated into believing the tricks their own brains play.

            (Prove I’m wrong.) 😉

          360. Well I understand your atheist bent if that’s how you choose to understand the Gospel, because guilt and fear are not the purpose of it.

            So what IS the purpose then? And why do parents instill such fear in so many children?

            And what happens to all those who do not follow your god? Hell of course, and if you deny this you are a flat out liar.
            Watch The Cage video.

            Anyone indoctrinating someone out of fear, shame, guilt, or what have you is emotionally manipulating./blockquote>
            And this is EXACTLY what fundamentalist religion(in this case Christianity is all about)

            However you will admit that guilt and fear does exist in people—Christian or non.

            Of course.

            The Gospel preached correctly does not invoke those feelings but rather expels them.

            Dead wrong. It generally exacerbates it. Would you like several de-converts to explain this to you? Have you ever read Bruce Gerencser? You really should. A former evangelical pastor and someone who knows this stuff inside out and backwards.
            https://brucegerencser.net/

            I don’t deny there are de-converts, but I would dare to say that many of them left Christianity because of some of its bad examples, and/or kinds of doctrine that use Scripture like a hammer.

            Lies are lies, whether they are forcibly drilled into a person or subtly. It is all poison in the end and the results are all the evidence one needs … and are the primary reason why people deconvert.

            You’re welcome to presume whatever you like about the reason for my faith, but I’ve not shared it because you wouldn’t believe it anyway. I don’t like casting my pearls before swine, but I’m also not ashamed of why I believe, so here it is: I believe in God because I know that He loves me, TRULY loves me for who I am, not for what I do or don’t do. I love Him because my faith is a relationship with Someone who knows me better than I know myself, is interested in every aspect of my life, and gives me the wisdom, strength and peace I couldn’t get on my own to live it. Guilt and condemnation have nothing to do with it. I know that perfection exists because I have a conscience, but believing in God means I believe in His perfection instead of relying on myself. Any other religion in the world depends on human behaviour and their obedience to rules. Christianity in its truest form means God did everything for us.

            Who said anything about being ashamed for believing? Not me! Those are your words, Jasmine. Remember that.
            All you have done here is explain how you feel about your god – some warped idea of ‘’love’’. Yahweh is ‘’perfect’’, yes. A perfect monster.

            “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” Richard Dawkins.
            This is the character you worship, Jasmine. The fictitious bronze-age deity invented by illiterate tribesmen thousands of years ago. His name is Yahweh. And he is a make-believe man- made god.
            But you have not touched on WHY you became a born-again Christian. I suspect, this is where you are afraid to tread, isn’t it, as it will reveal that you have pinned your hopes, like every believer, on acceptance of the unverified supernatural nonsense of the bible?

          361. “And this is why teaching such utter nonsense to kids should be considered child-abuse.”

            This is a faith statement. Congratulations, Jasmine! Ark is talking religion!

          362. No, it’s not a faith statement, JB. That’s just an paltry excuse to avoid responsibility for committing child abuse and pretending it’s for a greater cause than the health and welfare of the dependent child.

            Child.abuse occurs when “a parent or caregiver, whether through action or failing to act, causes injury, death, emotional harm or risk of serious harm to a child.” According to the CDC, abuse occurs when “acts of commission are deliberate and intentional.” That’s exactly – EXACTLY – what parents are doing when the teach their children that they are in some way broken at birth by an imaginary inheritance of something bad and, if not remedied by acceptance of a religious doctrine that involves belief in at least one superstitious agency, will have consequences of separation, torment, and suffering even beyond death.

            This is without question – without any need for FAITH as you snidely and falsely accuse those who correctly identify what you are doing to children under your care and supervision – a matter of parental abuse because that intentional act by a parent really does cause emotional and psychological harm to the child. The act relies on threat, emotional blackmail, and psychological manipulation under dire threat to achieve what the parent wants, namely, a forced convert to his or her particular religious belief through indoctrination to become a ‘believer’. It’s abuse but granted a special legal exemption in law because, well, religion, donchaknow.

          363. Tildeb, I appreciate your faith statement as well! It’s wonderful that you’re finally willing to engage with your religious convictions.

          364. Tildeb won’t talk to me, and I’m not interested in riding the merry-God-round with Arkenwald. But it would be interesting to find out what their relationships with their fathers were like.

            Video Link:

          366. My hypothesis:

            He’s (consciously or subconsciously) jealous that I have a good relationship with my father, when his was defective.

          367. So…no science.

            He doesn’t seem to have any difficulty composing long, faith-laden messages for me.

          369. The fact of the matter is that no comments from me to Amanda receive either a fair reading or a thoughtful reply. I’m wasting my time. She’s vindictive, boastful, stupid, and a mewling uncritical follower of her father’s beliefs. She’s a malformed artificial creation who borrows everything – including her purpose and function as she has been taught to see them – and gives nothing original back. She says nothing truthful, nothing worth reading, and nothing worth spending my time and effort responding to. I sincerely think that she feels worthwhile to her relationship with you by defending all of the very silly things you say while trying to sound as petulant and snide as you when legitimately criticized.

          371. I’ve asked questions. I’ve quoted professionals (both Christian and Atheist). And I’ve quoted TILDEB DIRECTLY, multiple times. But still, I offer “nothing truthful” and “nothing worth reading.”

            Lol.

            Here’s something both truthful and worth reading, for anyone who has ever been intimidated by an Atheist online: conversations between myself and Tildeb are proof that you have nothing to fear. Atheists are the ones (literally) trying to build on NOTHING. Atheism renders a person so useless, that when challenged to examine the foundations of their beliefs they only have two options: name call (like Ark) or run away (like Tildeb).

            Atheists can’t even spar intellectually with a housewife from a farm community.

            “But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.” 1 Cor. 1:27

          372. Change the first occurrence of the word “fact” to “faith” and I will agree with you.

          373. On the contrary, Tildeb, you complain against teaching children anything to do with faith at a young age and call it indoctrination, but should an atheist from birth convert to Christianity as an adult, according to you they’ve probably got mental issues. If atheism was the bright light of truth you claim it is, then shouldn’t it be able to keep people from deconverting?

          374. You’re projecting here, Jasmine. I think comparative religions should be core curriculum. I don’t think religious indoctrination is ever a good thing. I think it is abuse. As for faith-based thinking, it’s a broken method. It does not produce knowledge. Ever. It produces claims of assumption, assertion, and attribution and parents perhaps unwittingly teach children that these are equivalent to knowledge. They’re not. They are equivalent to lies, to ‘alternate’ facts, to denialism of the real world in the name of a contrary belief. But worst of all, faith-based thinking promoted in one area – like religion – is hard to counter when transferred to a host of other areas like medicine and politics and history. People begin making shit up and then claiming it’s fine because it’s equivalent to knowledge. It is a guaranteed method of thinking to fool yourself, and, as Feynman pointed out, we are the easiest people in the world to fool… hence the need for evidence-adduced reasoning to carry the day.

            So if an adult decides to believe in whatever, he or she has every right to do so. But that doesn’t mean I have to respect anything they have to say if they use faith-based reasoning to justify the belief or opinion. But if a religious person uses evidence-adduced reasoning for a belief or opinion, then I’m not going to hold their religious belief as a litmus test they automatically fail. I will pay their opinion or belief with respect if and only if they produce good evidence-adduced reasons for it. Wouldn’t it really be something if so many evangelical believers offered the same to atheists? Imagine that miracle…

          377. I wonder specifically about Santa Clause. Around here, parents are known to go WELL out of their way to make their kids believe their presents come from the North Pole.

      2. Hi Jasmine –

        Don’t worry about @Arkedummy. His geyser was apparently malfunctioning yesterday. He should seek professional help.

        They say you hurt the ones you love the most – so when he says, “Have a really nice fucking day, Jasmine.” – it’s only because he really wants you to have a nice day because he loves you.

        In fact – his toe has more morality (and assuredly love) than we can imagine. So when the whole @Arkedummy (let alone just his toe) expresses his desire for you to have a “really nice fucking day” – consider it a compliment beyond all words.

        ~CQW

        Reply

      3. @Arkedummy

        Speaking of homicidal genocidal megalomaniacs – you haven’t provided any scientific evidence that homicide, genocide, or even pesticide(s) is wrong.

        I haven’t asked for evidence that infanticide is wrong – because you most likely support infanticide.

        Have you sought out a professional geyser sorter outer? In all sincerity – I highly recommend it. Last thing you want is messed up geyser. Whew.

        Have a really nice infanticide supporting day ya big dummy.

        ~CQW

        Reply

      4. … the sound from inside tha big dummy. Figures.

        Have a nice morning ya big dummy.

        ~CQW

        Reply

      5. Oh @Arkedummy

        If they’re were any crickets around here – you’d be snapping away some close up photos – especially if they were mating.

        Have a nice day.

        ~CQW

        Reply

        2. The crickets are on HIS side of the conversation, right? You asked him to explain why genocide is wrong and HE responded with crickets. Does he understand how the crickets response usually works?

          Should we send him a picture to color?

          Reply

          1. One of the sounds on my kids’ white noise machine is crickets. They love it! Very soothing.
            Ark can chirp whenever he wants… I think it’s an improvement from his usual screeching.

          2. No question about that.

            But does he realize he’s actually mocking himself with that reply? I don’t think he does.

          3. Apparently, the answer is “no”. He doesn’t understand how crickets are supposed to work.
            Or he doesn’t understand ‘a joke’.
            Or both.
            He should color a picture.

          4. I didn’t think CQW was joking when he said “you haven’t provided any scientific evidence that homicide, genocide, or even pesticide(s) is wrong.”

            As far as I know, that’s true. Ark HASN’T provided any scientific evidence those things are wrong… (And, in fact, I have quoted several scientists who explained that science alone CAN’T answer moral questions.)

            Hm…

      6. Some people are really into crickets. And in the world of atheism – anything goes.

        ~CQW

        Reply

  13. “If all gods are make-believe, no god is real.”
    Then to test the logical consistency of the statement, take the contrapositive of that statement,
    “If not (no god is real), in other words, if at least one god is real- then not all gods are make believe.”
    After all this time, Ark finally said that all gods are make- believe. He also clarified and said that there are no gods.
    Therefore, he believes that there is no real god.
    Unless he has a lack of belief of what he- himself- says, we finally got an absolute statement from him.
    Thank you Ark, we can work with your honesty.

    Reply

  15. Fucking Hilarious!

    ”None of us deserve anything good … we’ve all rebelled against god”

    But which fucking god is he talking about?

    I have always rebelled against Apollo and Quetzalcoatl. Is he talking about these guys?

    I dunno, but according to this ignorant twat in the video, we’re all bad anyway and should already be dead and in hell (and being tortured for eternity by the same fucking monster that supposedly created us)

    This dickhead should definitely write to his old Uni and see if he can get a refund.

    And this is the absolute shite you raise your kids on? Anyone who teaches this fuckoing garbage to kids should be prosecuted for child abuse.

    No wonder you’re a lousy comedian, Branyan. How the hell could anyone laugh after wallowing in this bullshit?

    Reply

    1. Apollo and Quetzalcoatl… yes. And Lo. And Allah. And Yahweh.

      They’re all names for the same God.

      (Behold, readers. Ark is a great example of what rebellion does to a person’s mind. He has been denying the truth his whole life.)

      Reply

      1. And you are simply an indoctrinated halfwit.
        Yahweh is the standard of goodness?

        The same biblical megalomaniacal, genocidal dumbfuck that supposedly flooded the world?
        Are you out of your fucking mind?

        Reply

          1. More moral than make believe deities?
            Damn straight.
            More moral than totally fucked-up fundamentalists that like to preach Divine Command Theory and tell their kids if they don’t believe in this fucking monster they will burn in hell for the all eternity?
            Yeah damn straight I am more moral.
            My fucking big toe has more morality.

            And if you teach this to any child you are guilty of child abuse. Period.

          3. As gods aren’t real that is such a stupid fucking thing to say, Amanda, isn’t it?
            But based on this blog, i am more moral than you and Daddy and certainly more moral than this fucking arsehole, Heck.

          9. There are no gods. They are man made.

            You continue to ask fucking idiotic question.
            I am a bit tired having spent the afternoon on and off sorting out a faulty geyser.
            So make sure your next question is sensible or don’t expect a decent answer.
            One and only warning ….
            Do you understand?

          10. I understand you don’t want to answer this question.

            You’re using a standard to determine whether Yahweh is “moral.” You say that you are more moral than me. And you are more moral than my dad. And you are more moral than Peter Heck. So, is there anyone who is more moral than you? If so, who?

          11. No, I am telling you gods are made up and so is the crap of hell that you poison your kids with.

            You continue to ask idiotic questions and I have warned you repeatedly not to do so.

            Maybe I will deign to answer tomorrow.
            That will depend if you have decided to exercise a little critical thought.
            I realise that may be a long shot.

            YOu still have to learn the basis of morality and ethics.
            And whole you beleive it resides with a man made deity that is going to be a problem for you.
            Maybe you will wake up to this?
            Maybe you will die ignorant?

          12. I still have to learn the basics because stubborn Atheists (like you) squirm away when the questions get hard.

            So, I guess my only choice is to listen to Atheists who are more honest than you, like Michael Ruse:

            “…ethics is illusory. I appreciate that when somebody says ‘Love they neighbor as thyself,’ they think they are referring above and beyond themselves . . .
            Nevertheless, . . . such reference is truly without foundation. Morality is just an aid to survival and reproduction. Any deeper meaning is illusory . . .”

          13. And telling your kids they will be b burning in hell for not worshiping Yahweh is ethical is it?

            You’re nothing but an ignorant indoctrinated fucking idiot!

            Think on that when your kids grow up and tell you to stuff off!

          14. Uh…sure…”I’ll think on that.” (Except, I’ve told you before–I haven’t told my kids they will burn in Hell for anything.) YOU’RE the one claiming some people are “more moral” than others.

            So, do you have a standard or scale you use for that judgment? Or, is it just rambling?

          15. Listen, you ridiculous, stupid indoctrinated woman.
            This arsehole in the video is laying it out for you.
            You are already , bad,condemned from the word go, and if it wasn’t for delightful fucking Yahweh giving you a stay of execution with serious provisos, you’d be in Hell already .
            In fact, according to logic of the Dickhead in the video should be in Hell, absolutely deserve to be in fact, …. burning and being tortured for eternity.

            This is point 1. It is part of the primary, and crucial doctrine of Christianity. If there is no hell then what the fuck is the point of having to earn your passage into heaven?

            2nd. That you are holding off telling your little kiddies does not make the doctrine go away or diminish the fact that YOU believe in Hell .
            Otherwise, why on earth would you give the nod to this video and the dumb fuck , Heck, telling you how it is?

            So what this actually means …. Amanda that by NOT telling your kids they will roasting in Hell for eternity should they choose not to beleive in your make-beleive deity, Yahweh, simply makes you a fucking hypocrite of the worst kind.

            Hows that for a ramble?

          16. It’s 4:30 in the morning here. Peaches is probably asleep, resting up for a full day of indoctrinating the babies.

            I’ve got a pretty good idea that when she gets around to reading this, she will point out that you haven’t addressed her polite question. She will express that she is in no way surprised as you NEVER answer questions.

            As rambles go, however, this is excellent. It’s thoughtless. Personal. Irrelevant. Mean-spirited. Irrational. In short, it’s atheism!

            I’m going back to bed. (Got an emergency call from my Dad at 4am). Thanks for demonstrating the uselessness of your worldview.

            Remember: It’s never too late to abandon a bad idea!

          17. If you take your make believe monster out of the equation the question practically becomes moot and we simply resort to the default position: Evolution. And that’s how it has always been.

            As rambles go, however, this is excellent. It’s thoughtless. Personal. Irrelevant. Mean-spirited. Irrational. In short, it’s atheism!

            Next to global genocide, and telling children they are born bad/sinners who will burn in the fires of Hell if they do not accept Jesus fucking H Christ as a savior, I reckon my ramble was a pure delight by comparison.
            And as least it was truthful .
            All you do is lie through your damn teeth.

            Remember: It’s never too late to abandon a bad idea!

            Yes, Branyan, so take your own advice and do the right thing. Tell your kids and the Grandkids the truth.
            Don’t be a willfully ignorant dumb fuck all your life.

          21. Evolution.
            Are you fucking blind as well as deaf.
            Once more ….Evolution.

            May be this will help ….written to someone who could no longer maintain a lie and was about to come out of the closet to her fanatically christian fundamentalist family.


            Atheism is extremely easy.
            It has no content other than the lack of belief in gods.
            Although I guarantee you will be told otherwise by a large number of Christians should this come up!

            Atheism is the ground state of humanity. Everything else has to be taught/learnt.
            Something easily demonstrated from the number of gods humans have created.

            We have evolved to assign agency to things: thunder, lightening, smoking volcanoes etc. many of which we once attributed to one god or another. It is part of the human ”survival package”. When we first climbed down from the trees and heard a rustle in the grass it was usually either the wind or a predator.

            You got it wrong and you were lunch.
            So rather just hightail it out of there than stick around to find out.

            Atheism is only difficult if you are surrounded by those who still think that it is a god who causes the lightening or the smoking volcano – and inadvertently most Christians do think this! Funny, if you think of it in this light?

            However, when you are in an environment where non-belief is more the norm, and extreme fundamentalism is regarded as ”Oddball” you will glide through your daily life like a skater on ice, I assure you.

            And remember: You are highly unlikely to win the hearts and minds of those thoroughly wrapped up in religion by trying to demonstrate that the Earth is not really flat, or any variation along this theme!

      2. Has anyone heard from @Arkedummy today?

        I know he had plans to work on a faulty geyser today.

        You know who makes a great geyser? Yep that’s correct – God.

        Have a great evening and free Pistorius.

        ~CQW

        Reply

  16. Notice how he changes the premise away from the one he introduced at the beginning to one that he can then undermine by semantic means.

    Oh look… that’s what you do, too, JB!

    Reply

    2. Peter Heck (in the video): “I can’t answer that question. No one can. But the reason is because the premise of the question is jacked up.”

      Tildeb (a few months ago): “I happen to think those questions you ask are actually very poor ones; any answers will reflect that poor quality.”

      Amazing.

      If I may quote, word-for-word, again… “That’s what you do, too!” 😀

      link: https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2016/07/01/i-dont-believe-in-god-because-of-scripture/comment-page-1/#comment-2149

      Reply

    3. Feeling vilified, yet? (Historically, you feel vilified whenever your own stupidity is exposed for others to see.)

      If you’d like, I can call you a couple names to give you an excuse to blame ME (for “vilification”) instead of blaming YOU for being a thin-skinned, poor-communicating, contradictory-laden, morality-borrowing Atheist.

      Reply

  17. Just like there is no innocent kid in some Tribe somewhere on the planet.
    ” all have sinned”. This should keep us from pious pride. Unfortunately it doesn’t many times.

    Reply

  18. There’s also this little thing called “free will” that we were all granted. If the drunk driver chooses to drive drunk and crash into another car, God would be going against His own word to stop it from happening because He is interfering with the freedom of a person’s will. You can’t give someone freedom and then dictate how they use it, else it ceases to be free.

    Reply

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