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105 Responses
Just for you …. to show I care that you do not remain terminally ignorant.
scientific method
noun
a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
Presupposition:
noun
a thing tacitly assumed beforehand at the beginning of a line of argument or course of action.
(It’s a fancy word for “assumption.”)
In order to even START doing science, you have to assume a dozen things. That doesn’t mean you can’t change your mind if/when necessary. But the hypothesis itself is a form of assumption. First, you make a guess. Then, you test that guess. If it doesn’t work out, you make another guess…. (All while PRESUMING that all the scientists who have gone before you were smart and trustworthy, because you’re building on their work.)
Here’s the presupposition that was used by Gottfried Leibniz (who researched during the 17th century,, when the official scientific method was still being developed). āThe ultimate reason of things must lie in a necessary substance, in which the differentiation of the changes only exists eminently as in their source; and this is what we call God.ā
And here’s Newton, in the 17th century: “Atheism is so senseless and odious to mankind that it never had many professors.” –Isaac Newton, Physicist and Mathematician (Discoverer of Calculus)
Then there’s Francis Bacon, one of the MAJOR contributors to the scientific method: “A little philosophy incline’s man’s mind to Atheism, but depth in philosophy brings men’s minds to religion.” Hey, wow, 17th century again!
So, if you know your history–and if you trust scientists like Bacon and Newton and Leibniz. (and Keplar and Boyle and Kelvin)–then you have to ask yourself: where they just making bad presuppositions? Or are TODAY’S Atheists the ones who don’t know how to think?
Nope. Lying again.
However, on reflection, that suggests you have actually thought about what you write and in all honesty you come across as simply too bone stupid to even consider critical thought as a viable option.
Unless you are suggesting it would be a presupposition to state ”Water is wet”.
When you say “water is wet,” you presuppose that those words have meaning. And you presuppose that the person hearing them will be able to make sense of that statement.
Testing whether water is wet is pretty easy for even the most amateur “scientists.” …unless we can’t agree on the definition of “wet.” (Technically, physicists have shown us that water is more “empty space” than anything. And then it’s up to the human brain to make interpretations like “wet.”)
But I’ve already told you I will accept anything which is proven true by the scientific method. I understand where it came from and WHY it continues to work time after time after time.
YOU’RE the one who refuses to listen to anyone who self-identifies as a Theist. YOU’RE the one who throws out things that are over your head, AND WON’T EVEN READ/WATCH them.
If quotes from great scientists sound like “lying” to you, then I’m afraid you’re not the intellectual you think you are.
You should find a worldview where you’re allowed to think for yourself, without Googling “Is [so-and-so] an Atheist?” first.
But Iāve already told you I will accept anything which is proven true by the scientific method
And how does the character Jesus of Nazareth fit into this picture?
Oh, and you still haven’t answered regarding what or who you consider Jesus of Nazareth to be?
Let’s see some genuine honesty and intellectual critical thinking, Amanda.
Please stop replying more than one to the same comment. It branches the conversations and makes it hard for others to follow.
Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus!
http://images.memes.com/meme/893636
Yes, but this is a cruscial foundational tenet of youyr entire beleif structure.
You cannot continue to claim ”Goddidit” unless you are open and honest about whether Jesus is the god you worship, that you will be going to hell if you donlt acknowledge him and whether he is the Creator of the Universe.
Let’s at least start from a clear open foundation, shall we?
Tell me your beliefs regarding the biblical character, Jesus of Nazareth.
No, it’s not the foundation of my belief structure.
As I’ve already told you: LOGIC is really the foundation.
I depend on LOGIC, and I assume that my brain is capable of seeking and discovering truth. (As all of us assume.)
But go ahead and keep trying to put Jesus in a box and deliver him to my doorstep, since you think you’ve got him figured out.
Someday, maybe you’ll be able to start at the bottom and figure out what YOU believe.
Fine. Then explain to me in logical terms how you see the character Jesus of Nazareth.
No–because you haven’t explained to me in logical terms how YOU are capable of judging my answers.
Oh, is that all!
Well, it says in the bible Jesus walked on water.
Explain it.
According to science, only something or someone supernatural would be able to walk on water.
Now–scientifically–how have you tested whether it actually happened?
(Oh, I remember: you throw out anything you’ve presupposed to be impossible.) š
Ark, I have to run some errands this morning, so I won’t be able to respond to my phone notices immediately.
But, whenever you’re ready to watch something that makes you uncomfortable, I’m waiting….
waiting…
waiting…
for you to explain what’s wrong with Lewis’ LOGIC in the video “Finding Shakespeare.”
<blockquote.According to science, only something or someone supernatural would be able to walk on water.
Right! So as there is no way to test this – and there are plenty of similar modern day claims – we can say with a fair degree of confidence that belief in its veracity is based solely on faith .
Now that we have progressed past the first base you can outline your based belief of the character Jesus of Nazareth, primarily the fact that what you belief is not based on evidence but faith in the accounts in the gospels.
Would this be a fair summation of your position?
No, Ark, “we” cannot say anything with a degree of certainty. Only *I* can use logic, remember?
You’re not on my truth-seeking team because you don’t even know where “logic” came from in the first place.
I’m ready to move past the first base, but you’re not coming with me unless you’re ready to admit that God is the source of logic.
Okay, I’ll concede this as a possibility if you first tell me the name of your god.
Typical Ark.
We’ve talked about this, too.
It doesn’t matter what God’s name is. The Supreme Source of Truth and Logic and Goodness. That’s God.
Remember, I told you to feel free to call Him Bill or Dick.
Your question is silly.
Right! So is your god or ”God”, Jesus of Nazareth? Yes or no?
Maybe if I type slower…
I’m.
Not.
Answering.
Any.
More.
Questions.
Have you watched the video yet?
As I suspected.
Coward! And, sadly, a hypocrite.
You are simply willfully ignorant, Amanda. Cherry picking your way through a maze of uncertainty because you are frightened and indoctrinated.
Thus you refuse to answer any question from anyone who will not agree with your make believe approach.
Questions you should be asking Questions any rational, normal well- balanced person would ask as a matter of course.
Ask any Christian deconvert. They’ll tell you straight to your face – you are simply living the delusion.
Until you are prepared to be honest and demonstrate you have a degree of integrity you give me no reason to accept anything you say as having any substance whatsoever.
I refuse to answer any questions?
I’ve literally been the ONLY ONE of the two of us, answering questions.
Did you watch the video yet?
So answer the question regarding Jesus.
Is he your god, the Creator Deity you worship?
Yes or no?
Answer it and I promise I will watch the damn video.
“In the beginning was the Logos/Word/Meaning/Logic, and the Word/Logic was with God, and the Word/Logic WAS God. He (the Word) was with God in the beginning. Through him (the Word) all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind… the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.”
Most Bible scholars believe the Word refers to Jesus.
As more than 70% of Biblical scholars scholars in American universities that have a degree-granting theological course or Jesus studies program are practicing Christians and 40% of these are contractually obliged to toe the university theological line is it any wonder they believe this?
(Yes, I do try to do my homework)
So, once more, please answer the question re: your position on the biblical character, Jesus of Nazareth:
Is he the god you worship and do you consider he is the Creator of the Universe, Yes or No?
It is a simple, straightforward question, Amanda.
That’s the problem, Ark.
All of your questions are simple.
And God is not a simple concept.
(The fact that religions through the ages have spoken in images, parables, and paradoxes means simply that there are no others ways of grasping the reality to which they refer. But that does not mean that it isnāt a genuine reality. –Niels Bohr, Physicist and Won 1922 Nobel Prize.)
You sure do have a lot of convenient explanations for the huge number of Christians, don’t you? They’re all mentally unstable. Or they’re all forced to SAY they believe something they don’t really believe. Etc. Etc. Etc.
Yes–I trust the Greek/Hebrew scholars who conclude that John 1:1 is talking about Jesus. Yes, I believe that Logic was with God in the beginning and was used in Creation–which means Logic IS God. And, yes, I believe that Logic became flesh and called himself Yeshua, which means God Rescues. Again, it’s a conversation I GLADLY would have with a Muslim or a Jew. I’d GLADLY stay here, on step #212, except that you’re still back at step #1.
Now, use the Logic which God gave you the mind to process, and tell me what’s wrong with C.S. Lewis’ reasoning. (OR, feel free to wait for the next C.S. Lewis Doodle, which will be posted in the next few days. That one is even more on topic with the philosophical problem you have.)
So. once more is the biblical character, Jesus of Nazareth, the god you worship and do you believe he is the Creator of the Universe, yes or no?
Do you understand that there are questions which don’t have yes/no answers?
(Yes or no.)
Yes I do, but in this case it is straightforward and I cannot understand why you are avoiding a straightforward answer. Unless you are afraid of something?
So, do you believe Jesus is the Creator of the Universe and is he the god you worship.
Yes or no?
No–it’s NOT straightforward. You are so completely unprepared for the doctrine of the Trinity that I can’t even describe how far away you are.
It’s like trying to do calculus with my First Grader.
You haven’t admitted there is such thing as God, yet. You’re still toying with the idea that logic is a product of our brains. YOU ARE ON STEP #1, so the complexity of Jesus as God or simply a messenger of God (as the Muslims believe) is way way way way way down the line.
I gave you the most complete answer I can: I believe that Logic was with God and the “tool” he used througout his Creation. And I believe Logic became flesh and called Himself Jesus. According to John 1, the Word/Logic was with God AND WAS God. So I believe that Logic is another way of saying “God” which is another way of saying “Jesus.”
But language is a really difficult thing to use when dealing with the supernatural/Divine. Especially when simpletons keep asking, “YES OR NO!?!”
Yes or no?
Yes or NO?!
You just answered my yes/no with “yes, but,” and I’ve done the same thing. Yes, I believe Jesus is God, BUT–the conversation of whether He REALLY WAS God-in-the-flesh will not take place with you.
You are not ready for it.
You still don’t know where logic came from.
Here’s a sneak peek at Lewis’ other video, which you’ll find an excuse not to watch.
With due respect I am certainly no simpleton, thank you very much, and I am fully aware of the nuances of the Christian faith.
However there are certain basic fundamental tents of your religion that were laid out at Nicea and are – apparently – non-negotiable.
I am not interested in you quoting what scholars believe and as you continually harp on about logic and independent thought etc, I want to know what your belief is
So, once more, without any ambiguity.
Is the biblical character, Jesus of Nazareth the gods you worship and do you consider he is the creator of the universe?
I told JZ to burn the Bible.
You can do the same with whatever you’ve read about Nicea.
You’re a philosophical and spiritual simpleton.
See you next time.
So you are a coward and somewhat of a hypocrite after all.
If you cannot acknowledge whether you think Jesus of Nazareth is the Creator of the Universe then you are not a Christian. Period.
*Typo
Fundamental tenets.
Oh, and if you really think you have the intellect to explain the Trinity – yet another church construct – then I will personally nominate you for a Nobel prize.
Lol!!!
New post is up.
You really are a troubled individual.
And another lie. You are getting very good at this. Upbringing is it? Soon you will be an expert in misrepresentation just as Eusebius was.
Never did I say this. Not once.
The HGP demonstrates unequivocally that the human race could not have derived from a single couple as depicted in Genesis.
Are truly think you are struggling here Amanda. You are way out of your depth, theologically and intellectually.
Wait until your dad gets back from the beach.
Go and read a book on evolution or something similar in the meantime.
Again … listen to the podcast. The Hindu’s de-conversion story made me smile.
The Christian’s story made me angry – as the guy realized he had been lied to for the entirety of the first part of his life and he had wasted his youth simply because of the fear of hell being indoctrinated into him as a kid.
He sounded very similar to the way you come across right now in fact.
If a Christian’s testimony won’t convince you there’s a God, then why should an Atheist’s testimony convince me there isn’t one?
I’ve got news for you, Ark: I’ve read dozens of testimonies from former-Christians and former-Muslims and former-Jews, etc. etc.
And it’s still completely irrelevant to this thread.
All god belief begins with a presupposition usually because of cultural indoctrination.
Like you have suffered.
So of course it is irrelevant as this thread holds the same presupposition.
And your belief there is no god comes from the cultural indoctrination YOU have suffered–which says that evolution explains everything, even though you’re not sharp enough to explain how.
What REALLY ought to make you angry are the testimonies of former-Atheists (like C.S. Lewis) who show that western “education” is every bit as guilty of indoctrination as the most backward religious cult.
Now–you can demonstrate that I’m wrong and that you know how to think for yourself by watching the video and explaining why it’s called “Finding Shakespeare,” or you can say something about the Genome Project or Yahweh and tell yourself it’s an intelligent answer.
It’s up to you.
But I’m talking about this video today and nothing else. If you refuse to watch it, then you’re literally proving one of his points. But you have the right to do that. š
Liar!
Evolution does not explain everything and never claims to either.
And the evidence supports it.
Unless you have a case to refute it?
You are beginning to sound a bit like Wally -chronically narrowly focused.
The only point you need to prove – to yourself more than me, my dear, is how the biblical character, Jesus of Nazareth is the Creator of the Universe.
Once you offer up a rational argument then I promise I shall watch your video.
If
Yup
I am narrowly focused
Jesus
But I don’t take it as an insult as you intended
The biblical character, Jesus of Nazareth, is a narrative construct, Wally. He didn’t exist.
šššššššššš
Yes, this is exactly the reaction when I read people who actually believe he was a real person and a god.
Hilarious right?
Yeah..ok.
Anyway, I shall leave you in peace so you can quite using me as your flimsy excuse for not addressing what mrsmcmommy has presented to you.
I must tell Mrsmc that, like you, Lewis was delusional?
I’m cracking up. You still don’t understand that I’m not defending anything to an incompetant judge.
You literally said, “Any argument he puts forward is irrelevant” because he referred to Jesus.
In other words, you are presupposing that a Presuppositionalist can’t share anything about truth/reality. Oops!
That’s a rookie mistake, Ark. You’re out of your league here. But a little humility would go a long way. Just say, “I don’t really understand Lewis–and even my own arguments are just repeats of things I’ve read on Atheist blogs.”
It’s not your fault no one made you think for yourself while you were being formally “educated.” But, if you’re honest that Lewis is simply over your head, maybe I can help you wrap your mind around it.
That’s right! By El, I think you’ve got it!
Well, dome Mrsmc.
I’m out of my league? Oh dear, are you really sure you want to push that envelope, Amanda? Really?
*push*
Then let’s start. Convince me you are not suffering any form of mental imbalanced for believing that the character Jesus of Nazareth is a god?
No, Ark. I was hoping my “push” would get you to watch the video. You’re not capable of judging whether Jesus of Nazareth was God because–for the 100th time–you would have to use logic and reasoning, and you’re bad at both.
Twice today, you walked in a complete circle and didn’t even realize it.
You keep throwing around the word “presupposition” even though you don’t know what it means and only got it from another Atheist.
Explain in your own words what Lewis argued in this video and then explain in your own words why he is wrong.
You will find the word presuppositionalist from a simple Google search.
But here, let me help you ….
See? Now only a mentally unbalanced – thoroughly indoctrinated -person would accept such nonsense.
Now, as Lewis had a similar presuppositional belief then whatever he proposes where the proposition includes the terms ”god”’and ”Jesus”’as allusions to the creator of the universe can be summarily dismissed.
Do you understand , now , Amanda?
I understand that you are so confused that you don’t even seem to be aware of it. lol
First of all, Lewis was not a “presuppositionalist.” When he was an Atheist, he mostly struggled with the belief that he “ought to” be good. And he started asking himself where morality came from… There are only two options: the Moral Law is a human creation or the Moral Law is a natural reality, like other Natural Laws. Then, he explored both of those possibilities.
Second, you sound like an idiot trying to argue against a video you haven’t watched. The fact that you brought up new scientific discoveries (like those regarding RNA and DNA) is a great example. Lewis delivered this speech shortly after the Russians launched the first shuttle into space, and they were bragging, “We didn’t see God anywhere up there!”
This speech (video) is his reply that OF COURSE they didn’t find God…if they’re looking for a bearded guy sitting on an asteroid. If the Russians thought that God could be disproved by exploring outer space, then they were as silly as you, for thinking God can be disproved by studying the Human Genome.
Both you and the Russians have very narrow, convoluted views of God. And you’re using the brains that HE provided to discover the logic that HE built into the Universe, in your attempts to mock religion.
It’s fascinating.
His Moral Law hypothesis is simply a load of horse shit .. to use a very scientific metaphor, and anthropological studies have shown it to be nonsense. Would you like a few links to show you?
Maybe you should take some time watching chimps at a local zoo, or even start to pay attention to your kids?
Evolution triumphs again. Sorry. You failed …again, MrsMc.
I explained, I only watched the last five minutes. Oh, all right and the beginning but the dialogue nauseated me. He mentions Jesus and god.
He believes </em Jesus of Nazareth is the creator of the universe.
Therefore I do not feel obliged to entertain anything he says, writes or believes unless he has demonstrated somewhere – maybe in Mere Christianity – the biblical character Jesus of Nazareth IS this creator he mentions.
I do not have a convoluted or narrow view of gods, not yours or anyone else's, I simply do not believe in gods.
Your insistence on using the term as a pronoun is beginning to make me think you are mentally unbalanced?
Do you think you might benefit from talking to a professional about your problem?
(*rolls eyes*) Ark, seriously, you’re embarrassing yourself.
Science doesn’t explain why chimps behave “morally” any better than it explains why humans do. And it CERTAINLY doesn’t explain why we won’t throw chimps in jail for murder…but we DO lock up people. (Well, except for consistent Naturalists like Darrow. He doesn’t think we should lock up murderers because they’re just as much a product of nature as chimps are.)
I don’t know if you’re not understanding because you don’t want to, or if it really is above your reasoning power.
But the fact that you have refused to read and listen to anything which “nauseates” you is pretty telling…
Doesn’t it? Then you need to go study, my dear.
Would you like at least one link to show you?
That I feel nauseated listening to Lewis alluding to god simply demonstrates I have little tolerance for him and his god beliefs, nothing more.
I understand perfectly, thanks.
And one of the major things I understand is you are demonstrating all the signs of hyper-religiosity, a major indicator of mental unbalance.
And this is why you’re my favorite Atheist to dialog with, Ark. š You so nicely sum up what’s wrong with the lot of you.
There are no intellectual arguments against God.
You simply don’t like him. š
And this is why you are the perfect poster girl for the mental trauma caused by religion.
What is there about your god to dislike? (other than a dislike of the actions of the fictitious character portrayed in the bible)
And tell me, how can one have any genuine feelings about something that cannot be established as real?
If I did I would be as mentally unbalanced as you.
According to naturalism “mentally unbalanced” is just a category of people who don’t happen to think the same way as the majority of humans.
“Mentally unbalanced” means the person’s brain is different.
But the majority of people throughout history have been able to see God in nature.
That, by definition, makes ATHEISTS the mentally unbalanced ones. The spiritually blind ones. The handicapped ones.
Look, Ark, it’s clear to everyone who is familiar with your method of operation what the problem is. You like to throw out accusations and insults when you get backed into a corner. You have absolutely no intention of reading or considering something which might upset your deeply held belief that science explains EVERYTHING–and anything that sounds religious must be ignored.
If you don’t want to know the truth, then…by all means… keep being very, very selective about what you read and think about.
Citation. Otherwise I shall have to assume you are lying once again.
You need a citation for the fact that people have been religious throughout the ages?
lol.
Who do you need to hear that from? Jerry Coyne?
No. And please stop behaving churlish. Reread your claim and back it up with evidence, or retract it.
I’m not backing up the claim that humans have been religious throughout the ages, Ark.
No one disputes that–unless they’re backed into a corner and trying to save face.
So another unsubstantiated assertion.
Didn’t daddy teach you not to tells lies … even white ones?
I’m literally flabbergasted that you’re even taking this rabbit trail. Most Atheists argue that “superstition was a primitive human behavior and NOW the most enlightened humans are evolving past it.”
You, yourself, have argued that we are moving toward a glorious, religion-free future, once neanderthals like me have evolved to your enlightened state. You believe my children will someday grow up and realize how smart you are compared with how dumb and indoctrinated their mother is.
Remember?
So, yes, MOST people throughout history have been Christian or Muslim or Jewish…or Baal-worshipers or Mithra-worshipers…or worshipers of any of the other thousands of gods you listed for me a couple weeks ago.
I’ve quoted scientist after scientist after scientist (including the Founding Fathers of every, single discipline: biology, chemistry, physics, astronomy)…all giving credit to the Creator for making a testable, ordered Universe instead of a chaotic, unpredictable one.
And it wasn’t until the last 100 years or so that secular scientists started turning their day jobs into their very own religion and convincing the average Joes that they don’t need God.
But, for the majority of our history (and still, in remote places where Western “Education” hasn’t brainwashed the locals)–humans have looked to nature and been in awe of God’s creation, regardless of what they called “God.”
That makes Atheists the ones whose brains aren’t functioning.
Pride does that.
This is because,,as well as being mentally unstable, you are disingenuous.
Here is what you wrote.
Please demonstrate the character, Jesus of Nazareth as this creator to whom you refer.
I’ve literally never said “Jesus of Nazareth is the creator” for this very reason. I’m tired of the way you try to make every, single conversation about Jesus.
Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus!
You can have the last work. (Unless you want to summarize C.S. Lewis’ argument in “Finding Shakespeare” so I know you understand it. If you want to talk about that, I’ll jump back in!)
Peace.
Sorry, I must apologise.
I actually thought you meant your god as you wrote it as a pronoun.
I didn’t think you meant all gods.
I am dreadfully sorry.
If you would only use the name of your god then all this confusion could easily be avoided.
However, I am glad you have finally realized that there are literally thousands upon thousands of gods.
I was somewhat distracted as I am watching the soccer at the moment and as you normally write such absolute rubbish and bearing in mind your own chequered history with mental instability you can hardly blame me for asking for a citation for your assertion, now can you?
So, just to clarify, then.
Are you saying Jesus of Nazareth is NOT the creator deity you genuflect to?
The deity (man god) you pray to?
He is NOT the deity you consider is your savior?
If not then who is?
Here’s a podcast you might like to listen to.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p046xpcy
The only thing any of us wants to hear is your epic take down of C.S. Lewis.
Unless you’ve got something to say about the video featured in this post, please go away.
Okay. Lewis was ignorant of a lot of the scientific material we have available today, not least DNA and RNA and the findings of the Human Genome Project, and this ignorance undoubtedly had an impact on his reasoning.
Are you scared to listen to what some people say about leaving the faith?
Oh, surely you are mature enough to be able to handle a genuine dose of truth and reality?
Go, on, have a listen. What’s the worst thing that could happen?
What scientific discovery would/should have changed something that Lewis said in this video?
The presupposition that Jesus is your god.
Lol. That’s not a “scientific discovery,” Ark.
Specifically what discovery–whether it was something they found in the Genome Project, or some other research–would change something that Lewis said in this video?
His entire approach is nonsensical. Again, based on presupposition.
Time and again I have explained this to you.
Yet because of your fundamental indoctrination you are unable to grasp the salient points.
You cannot assume a god and then build your faith arse backwards.
That’s exactly what you’re doing, Ark.
You’re assuming there is NO God, until some undefined piece of “evidence” proves otherwise.
Now, tell me: why is this video called “Finding Shakespeare?” What was C.S. Lewis’ argument? (You can’t refute an argument unless you can explain it, so I’m sure you can summarize it here…)
No, never ever have done that and I have told you this many times.
My non-belief in gods is based on the evidence presented so far.
I just asked for the evidence and asked you to explain how it contradicts anything in this video. And you didn’t answer.
So, let’s try again:
What has been discovered in the last 50 years since Lewis died which shows he was wrong about something he said in this video?
I told you I didn’t listen to the entire video.
But he is a presuppositionalist – just as you are – and thus any argument he puts forward is irrelevant.
First, convince me Jesus is the creator of the universe. Because this is what Lewis believed.
From the beachfront condo in Maui, I’m reading the comments on this post and am greatly encouraged! I feared, in my absence, that an atheist might come along and say something important and my unreliable Internet connection would make it seem like I’m unable to formulate a response.
What a relief to see that I won’t be returning from vacation to discover my faith has been destroyed by Wise Teacher’s science!
I’m somewhat dismayed that Sr. Dipshit, Peaches and Wally don’t seem to need my help but encouraged all the same.
Happy anniversary to the both of you John!
So confident in fact that you have to check in.
Amazing. Sun, sea and surf not enough for you, John?
You really do consider you are that special to believe your invisible friend needs your constant vigilance to ensure his make-believe word isn’t compromised in any way.
Why don’t we have a “like” button at the bottom of our comments? There have been a couple of times I would have “liked” Dave’s comments now…if I knew how…
mrsmcmommy,
Wow, I am humbled by your praise. Much better than a like button. Both the humbling and the praise.
My mind works more weirdly than most people, for good or ill. When I see the unbelievers in their anger and passion against the Almighty, it makes me think “What happened to them?” For many of the atheists I encounter have been hurt, either by the church, individual Christians not behaving as they should, or from a false perception of God’s love, mercy, and providence. I feel their anger in many of their posts, and most times our anger stems from our deep pain. Mine sure does. So I unfacetiously (dang… not a word, according to spellcheck… but I am using it anyway. i like it.) declare that I am praying for the unbelievers in our midst. They can’t very well lash out at the Almighty, so they do the next best thing, and direct it at His followers. I understand it. My own father is not a believer. He is a non-practicing Jew who prayed as a little boy for God to save his ill grandfather. My great grandfather died, and my father hated God for many years, for not acting as my father wanted him to do. He is softening in his later years (He is 72-ish) and no longer professes hatred for God, so I still hold out hope for him.
Thanks again for the kind words.
Dave
Isaiah 55:8 (ESV) – For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
Check settings.
Jerry Coyne, Ph.D. Professor of Ecology and Evolution at the University of Chicago and a member of both the Committee on Genetics and the Committee on Evolutionary Biology, on CS Lewis’ Mere Christianity
About says all that needs to be said.
Do you always avoid exactly what Jerry Coyne tells you to avoid?
No. I merely thought his insight relevant.
Lol. When his “insight” is “I can’t even read the book!” then it’s the same thing. You’re going to avoid reading it because Jerry Coyne didn’t read it.
That’s even funnier when you consider the quote I pulled out of this very video: “[to avoid finding God] select [what you read] very carefully.”
It’s hard work to stay an Atheist!
He is reading it, as a matter of fact.
I value his opinion as a scientist on other issues and trust his judgment on his review of the book.
Add this to the comments on his post then I’d say it tied in with my assessment of Lewis.
You cannot avoid finding gods …not even yours…. until you have established that gods are real.
How did you discover that the character, Jesus of Nazareth was a god?
I’m sure Dr. Coyne is a fabulous biologist! The problem is, this video has nothing to do with Biology.
Nothing.
So what was your least favorite quote in “Finding Shakespeare?”
Oh, I didn’t bother watching the video. Probably because I’m lazy
Give me a synopsis?
Maybe you forgot what I said on the other thread. I said: “…feel free to head over to the newest post and watch the video on ‘Finding Shakespeare.’… Iād be interested to hear later what you think of ‘Finding Shakespeare,’ if you comment on that thread.”
And here you are.
Commenting.
But, once again, you’re trying to steer the conversation toward Jesus instead of staying on track. š You just can’t get enough of Him, can you?
Watch the video and let me know where Lewis made his big, anti-science error. OR, we can end the conversation here.
To be clear: I will not be commenting on this thread any further unless you watch the video and tell me what’s wrong with it, scientifically.
Okay, watched the last five minutes. Just for you.
His presuppositional stance that the character, Jesus of Nazareth is a god.
lol! First of all, the scientific method itself is presuppositional. It was developed by Theists who believed that we could learn more about the Creator by studying creation. (I’ve pointed this out before.)
So, presupposition isn’t anti-science.
Actually, it’s philosophically impossible not to pressuppose certain things…. which is why scientists form hypotheses FIRST…and then they devise a way to test them.
Again: “presupposing” isn’t anti-science.
And–more importantly–I didn’t say to watch the last five minutes. I said watch THE VIDEO and then give me the quote you like the least.
First of all, the scientific method itself is presuppositiomal
Wrong. Go read a definition of falsifiable.
You’re waffling like an indoctrinated fundamentalist.
I have no desire to recite quotes to someone who needs an invisible friend to simply function like a normal human being.
John,
Great stuff, as always.
To interact with what Lewis said, I have mostly given up on trying to change people’s minds about God and salvation and the truth of Scripture. I share the Gospel and what God’s Word says, and pray He changes their hearts. People choose what they desire, and it is not God, apart from a work of the Holy Spirit.
I was once at a Pro Life rally holding a sign, many years ago. On the back of the sign it had suggestions of things to do while standing about. While most were good, one was decidedly not. It admonished me to repent for not getting involved earlier. I have yet to find that verse in Scripture.
It led me to conclude that holding a sign, and indeed just being in the rally was not enough. So I instead concentrated on sharing the Gospel and seeing God change people’s hearts. Then they would be much less likely to want to murder their baby.
Dave
Ezekiel 36:26-27 (ESV) – And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
Well said Dave. Thanks.
Kevin (aka SeƱor)
Kevin (aka Sen… Sen~…oh bother, I can’t remember the ASCII code for a n with a tilde on it… Guess I could have copied and pasted… but I have now typed all this…)
You honor me. I try to react only to the post at hand, but I sometimes just feel a torrent of words trying to come out all at once. Glad my humble offerings have been of some benefit.
Dave
1 Corinthians 2: (ESV) – And I, when I came to you, brothers,a did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
Don’t forget the rest of the title, Kev.
I have read with some interest, and more than a little consternation, some of the negative arguments in the comment streams from past posts. Your “lazy” submission this time around does more to answer them than anything else I have read, and it shows a higher quality of thought from which we can all learn a lesson. Thank you. For me, this was a breath of fresh air. Take care.
Whenever possible, it’s good to just let Lewis explain things…
“How…can we either reach or avoid God? The avoiding, in many times and places, has proved so difficult that a very large part of the human race failed to achieve it. But in our own time and place, it is extremely easy: Avoid silence. Avoid solitude.
Avoid any train of thought that leads off the beaten track. Concentrate on money, sex, status, health, and–above all–on your own grievances. Keep the [computer] on. Live in a crowd. Use plenty of sedation. If you must read books, select them very carefully…”