“…there is something cult-like about the culture of atheism. In fact, much of the criticism I have received of my speech is so utterly lacking in content that I can only interpret it as a product of offended atheist piety…”
That’s a quote by Atheist Sam Harris, who took some flak years ago for a speech which rubbed some of his fellow Atheists the wrong way. (His response to those critics is here.)
Christians can sympathize, right?
We know what it’s like to feel pressure to toe the line.
Sometimes we’re slow to question things, because we know it will make us unpopular among others in the Church.
Then, when we DO ask questions, we better not arrive at an answer other than the pre-approved one.
Have you ever been accused of having unseemly motives for digging into the “wrong” topic?
Sometimes Atheists do that to each other, too.
It stems from the problem we at the Comedy Sojourn have come to call “Fundamentalism.”
Fundamentalists can’t tolerate when someone arrives at a conclusion different from their own. (If you’ve ever said, “that’s a good point I’ve never considered,” you’re probably not my idea of a ‘Fundamentalist.’)
It takes courage to continue thinking independently, surrounded by Fundamentalists. Not everyone has the chops to keep exploring an idea, when they know they’ll be misunderstood.
Many people have left oppressive, group-thinking churches and become Atheists precisely because they don’t like the cult mentality.
They want the freedom to ask, “Is marriage REALLY just for a man and woman?”
…or “When does life begin?”
…or “Does God know absolutely everything?”
…without being told they’re heretics.
My heart goes out to those Atheists who discover it’s just as unacceptable to say “Religion can be positive” when in the presence of a Fundamentalist Atheist.
22 Responses
I once paid exorbitant tuition to attend a Catholic grad school to study Catholic theology.
In one of my classes the professor banded me from the discussion area because I put forth a criticism of the Church regarding its pro-South stand during the American Civil War.
The professor had continually said that in order to understand some of the Church’s questionable actions we couldn’t apply our own modern biases.
After arguing that the Civil War took place in nearly modern times therefore the Church should have condemned slavery, I was summarily booted from any further discussion.
I told the Dean that I’d take my precious education dollars elsewhere.
You sympathize with Violet’s predicament though she doesn’t understand that. She’s too muddled to even recognize that she has allies here.
Interesting perspective. I don’t have allies or enemies in Blogland. It brings together a group of people with differing thoughts on a wide range of subjects, and we all get something out of the discussion, don’t you think? I guess sometimes the conversation can get ‘heated’ but that’s the nature of people who have strong opinions, and as long as we don’t start banning each other the conversation goes on …
I have to sort of sympathize with Violet. She says we all get “something” from the discussion? I agree, but what is that something for? Why are we discussing if not to come at some sort of…point. What are we giving into the discussion? God knows my words can be in vain, but He is behind some of them, in control, I know. I just want to see if I gave something good, or just empty words. That’s all. It’s why I’ve been apologizing for being here, lol, I know it sounds ridiculous, but I feel like I need a permit to live. But that’s why I need Jesus, haha. I just want to know if I mean anything. Ya know?
Mrsmcmommy, you have just pointed out atheism is becoming of age. All atheists always have one thing in common about not believing in any gods as against religious belief encompassing different gods or different versions of the same god, so atheism is at least always singing from the same song sheet in this respect.
It is a natural human trait to have differences about what atheists should stand for. It appears Sam Harris was attacked by the more extremist anti-religious people and nutters who are an occurrence among all ideologies. As Sam pointed out many keep to themselves for many different reasons and will not argue their atheist beliefs.
Atheism in general supports progress in most aspects of scientific research, and even though progress is not always a positive feature of life for all humans it is too late to change what we have and without progress socially, politically, economically and scientifically I believe life will not and cannot be sustained on this planet into the future.
Thanks for reading. 🙂
John,
As I see it, there are atheists and there are anti-theists.
A “true” atheist would say he believes there is no God, and he is likely to not care if you do believe in God. I can at least work with that. Because chances are, they would be able to have a rational discussion on why they say there is no God.
An anti-theist would say there is no God, you can’t believe in Him either, and he spends his time devangelizing those who do believe. No rational discussions possible here, just anger and hidden belief in a God they actually hate.
I can sympathize with the first (I hate the whole “former” and “latter” thing… used to confuse me as a kid, do I generally boycott it), because they tend to be more agnostic than atheist in my limited exposure. The second type… no sympathy other than the basic human kind. The anti-theist is like an angry child who has broken his toy, and now wants to break everyone else’s instead of trying to get his toy fixed.
Dave
Psalm 14:1 (ESV)
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds;
there is none who does good.
I admit I have some questions I’m afraid to ask. I’ve been shunned before! it stinks. There is SOOO much going on in this place we call Life…If we could only see! but we have only to Wonder… Of course, we were given a handbook, but also an imagination, corrupt, glorious, or somewhere in between.
Gene,
Ask your questions here.
I think I know the other posters here well enough to speak for them on this matter thusly: We would love to help you with any questions you have. We may at times disagree, but we strive to not be disagreeable people.
Dave
…Or the idea of speaking Truth as letting a lion out of a cage; A fake lion will get devoured.
Peaches! you told us your Dad feels empathy! see, the truth comes out! haha 🙂
Good catch! I chose that word on purpose. 🙂
All good things come from Goodness himself–including empathy.
And “well-being.”
And our instincts for “survival.”
And “natural processes.”
And any other word we can grab (or invent) when trying to describe a divine Universe without the Deity. It all begins and ends with Him.
I come from an Indy-Fundy background – it was always frustrating to run into groupthink and being discouraged from pursuing certain topics.
On several occasions we were given the object lesson of “Bankers get trained on identifying counterfeit money, not by handling counterfeit, but by becoming so used to the real stuff that they can identify the counterfeits immediately.”
They then essentially went on to explain “Don’t worry about looking into other points of view – just focus on one point of view”
I’ve since decided to go with a simpler mantra “The truth isn’t afraid of questions”
Yep!
I went to a Conservative Baptist highschool, so that provided several of my first examples of legalistic “Fundamentalism.”
But I’ve found as I’ve grown that the “Liberal” crowd can be just as uncomfortable with questions.
I wrote about a time I was blocked by a fellow Christian here: https://culturesatwar.wordpress.com/2016/07/04/blocking-the-truth/
“What’s happening here, Christians? Have we grown so attached to our religion that we must block anything that threatens it? If we’re so sure we’ve found the truth, then why do we need to protect it like a glass sculpture?”
mrsmcmommy,
I think some Christians treat the truth as a fragile thing because deep down they fear that it will be proved wrong if attacked, and they have put their identity in being right. Either that, or they are too lazy to be able to defend the truth and therefore should feel some awkwardness when they can’t defend what they believe.
We should rather put our identity in the Maker of Truth, and know that it is His truth in the first place. When people attack the truth or question it, it should not cause any panic in the believer. Ultimately, it is God who is being rejected, not the believer. God already promised that people would reject us and Him, so we should not be surprised or harmed by that fact. That there will be rejections is a truth as well.
If someone were to ever hit me with something I could not answer, I would admit that I did not have the answer at the moment. I would tell him that I will look into it and get back to him. That would cause me to see where I am lacking in my knowledge of the faith, and drive me to Scripture. Never a bad thing.
If God wanted us to never question, then Psalm 22, for example, would never be part of Scripture. David, called a man after God’s own heart, questioned God while he was feeling abandoned. But in his questioning, he found strength and answers, and realized that God had not forsaken him. His questioning was good for his faith, not something to be feared. He speaks of being mocked and rejected for God’s sake, yet works his way through it to a place where he finds solace in God’s presence and faithfulness.
God made us to be inquisitive. Any parent knows that a small child’s favorite question is “why?”, and I don’t think we ever outgrow it. God is never caught off guard by our questioning, and His followers should not be surprised by questions. There is no need to fear. The same faith that has existed for thousands of years will survive the questions of both believers and unbelievers today.
Dave
Psalm 77 (ESV)
1 I cry aloud to God,
aloud to God, and he will hear me.
2 In the day of my trouble I seek the Lord;
in the night my hand is stretched out without wearying;
my soul refuses to be comforted.
3 When I remember God, I moan;
when I meditate, my spirit faints. Selah
4 You hold my eyelids open;
I am so troubled that I cannot speak.
5 I consider the days of old,
the years long ago.
6 I said, “Let me remember my song in the night;
let me meditate in my heart.”
Then my spirit made a diligent search:
7 “Will the Lord spurn forever,
and never again be favorable?
8 Has his steadfast love forever ceased?
Are his promises at an end for all time?
9 Has God forgotten to be gracious?
Has he in anger shut up his compassion?” Selah
10 Then I said, “I will appeal to this,
to the years of the right hand of the Most High.”
11 I will remember the deeds of the Lord;
yes, I will remember your wonders of old.
12 I will ponder all your work,
and meditate on your mighty deeds.
13 Your way, O God, is holy.
What god is great like our God?
14 You are the God who works wonders;
you have made known your might among the peoples.
15 You with your arm redeemed your people,
the children of Jacob and Joseph. Selah
16 When the waters saw you, O God,
when the waters saw you, they were afraid;
indeed, the deep trembled.
17 The clouds poured out water;
the skies gave forth thunder;
your arrows flashed on every side.
18 The crash of your thunder was in the whirlwind;
your lightnings lighted up the world;
the earth trembled and shook.
19 Your way was through the sea,
your path through the great waters;
yet your footprints were unseen.
20 You led your people like a flock
by the hand of Moses and Aaron.
Totally agree. It was questioning (even God’s very existence) which led to the most profound period of growth in my life.
It was the worst and best thing that ever happened to me.
I get why people don’t want to question “too much.” I get that it feels like over-thinking, and they worry they’ll push their minds too far and teeter into craziness. But, I agree with you that we were MADE to be curious. So, rather than pushing our minds too far, we’re actually using them as they were meant to be used–to God’s glory–when we seek Him so fervently that it almost feels like a wrestling match. (Jacob, anyone?) 🙂
Anyway, here’s the Schaeffer quote from last week’s podcast again. I LOVE this!
I’ve actually always liked the whole recognising counterfeit money metaphor, but never thought of it as an excuse to block your ears to anything that goes against your worldview. You’ll be able to spot a blatant lie, but since we can’t all fully know the truth, we should have the humility to believe we could have some things wrong and examine them in the light of the truth we do know.
Where’s the comedy in this post? Nice of you to send your heart out, but we discuss things like this all the time. I’ve had to explain to John Zande that theism is natural on numerous occasions, I’ve argued with everyone about showing respect and seeing things from the point of view of oppressed groups, and lost a few atheist ‘blogging buddies’ defending the rights of trans people to decide for themselves who they are. It’s the nature of discussion and conflicting viewpoints.
I have to agree about the fundamentalist aspect of some atheists at some points in their journey. Maybe it’s people who live in particularly religious areas that have the harm done by certain forms of religion in their faces all the time, or those who went through terrible deconversion experiences. I guess I’m removed from religion at this point in time, and the versions I do see on a day to day basis are quite liberal.
Generally, Fundamentalists are incapable of finding common ground.
It’s all or nothing; agree completely, or be viewed as 100% wrong (along with an accusation of some negative ulterior motive, usually.)
My dad asked me to write this post on his behalf, while he’s out traveling. He’s doing a show tonight.
Weighing the similarities and differences between various ideologies is part of the creative process for him. He was inspired with some empathy when he noticed you were being hit with the same mindless demand for “evidence” that he has experienced himself… 🙂
I find it incredibly interesting how we evolve so much (seemingly) but get stuck in the same patterns. It’s tribalism – key for us to work together, but makes it difficult to move forward with new ideas. Then again, moving slowly is probably useful, otherwise we’d be burning out in all sorts of random directions that aren’t feasible. Dissenting ideas need to be particularly catchy to take hold, but usually they get beaten down or beaten out by the Groupthink.
It WOULD be incredible, if there were no Order and Mind behind it… (More than incredible. Impossible.)
Well, unless it all occurred naturally, then we’d be able to figure why we do things and there would be reasons (like those suggested above).
Honestly, I’m not sure what you’re saying there… “We’d be able to figure out why we do things…” I don’t think I understand.
But, all I’m trying to do is simply agree with what you’ve said to JZ about “natural” Theism. I agree that religion is an important, and naturally-occurring phenomenon. And I think tribe-mentality, empathy, and slowly-evolving ideas are built into the Universe.
Humans participating in this process are doing exactly what humans are supposed to do.