Mentioned earlier that my Dad is crazy.
And I’ve learned a lot from him.
He has a clock on the wall above his television.
It displays the time and date on a gigantic, illuminated screen.
Sometimes, he calls me up to complain that his clock isn’t working.
Dad: The clock says Thursday, son!
Me: That’s because today is Thursday, Dad.
Dad: It’s been Thursday for a long time!
Me: No longer than usual.
Dad: You’re wrong! It’s been Thursday for too long.
Me: Then have a nice Friday, Dad.
I’ve learned a lot from my Dad.
If I didn’t have faith in calendars and clocks, today would be a matter of my own opinion.
I’ve learned that I won’t learn the truth if I’m convinced I already know it.
Eventually, I pulled out my cell phone and showed my Dad the date.
Bright yellow letters said “THURSDAY”.
Then I pointed to the program listing on his own television.
“Program schedule for THURSDAY”
Dad insisted…I’m not kidding…that time must have gone backwards.
There is no ‘evidence’ that will convince a “Thursday denier”.
There is no evidence…
…that will convince anyone
…of anything
…unless they believe they could be wrong.
My crazy father taught me some truth.
The fool says in his heart, ‘there is no Thursday’. – Psalm 14
“For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.” – Romans 1:20
222 Responses
The residents of Honolulu, Hawaii (21°18′ N , 157°51′ W) claim it’s currently 2:15 p.m, Thursday, 23 February 2017. However, the residents of Kiritimati, Christmas Island (01°52′ N 157°24′ W) claim it’s currently 2:15 p.m, Friday, 24 February 2017.
Who’s correct? And what’s the date and time on Saturn?
So… what is your point?
Do you think the man who said “It has been Thursday a long time,” just meant that it’s Friday in another part of the world?
But they’re not located in another part of the world. Both straddle the same line of longitude and share the same time of day. So which of the two observes the correct day and date on the calendar?
Either one is ‘correct’ depending on where an individual is located. Local time is the only one that matters since we can’t occupy more than one timezone.
Of course, if my Dad lived in Honolulu, it would create endless problems for me when he called.
Yes. But it illustrates that times and dates are indeed arbitrary. The prime meridian, along with the international date line and all other times zones are artificial constructs of cartographers. And once you leave the planet, all concepts of time become meaningless as well. In fact,
Newsflash: Time May Not Exist
Not to mention the question of which way it goes …
Thankfully, we are not planning to leave the planet. And since most everyone in my community has agreed upon the artificial constructs of this time zone, I’ll keep telling Dad the day of the week.
When he doesn’t believe what I tell him, can he call you to learn that Thursday doesn’t exist?
Absolutely. Because the names for days and months are arbitrary constructs, as well. And if you agree that our conception of time is based purely on group consensus, how will you convince your father that he is objectively wrong?
I will never convince my father that he is objectively wrong.
In the same way that I will never convince you that objective morality exists.
How hard can it be? All you need to do is post a universal set of moral values that every single person on earth accedes to without reservation.
That set has already been written inside of every single person on earth. The hard part isn’t knowing what’s right. The hard part is doing what’s right.
Which part of my body should I slice open to gain access to this list?
You need to slice yourself open to contemplate morality? That’s kinda weird.
Well, you claimed that list was written inside of us—did you not? How do I read something hidden within my body if I don’t have X-ray vision?
Have you ever contemplated morality?
Yes. What of it?
How old are you? You talk like a sixth grader. So I’ll call you Junior.
You see, Junior, when you contemplated morality, you were ‘reading the list written inside you’. There isn’t literally a list tattooed inside your body. That’s just how grown-up people describe abstract concepts like morality, thoughts, ideas and dreams. These are things that happen ‘inside of us’.
Now, you need to go think about that for awhile. You can come back and talk to me when you’re ready to be polite.
Alright. Help me out a bit. What list of objective standards did you come up with while contemplating morality?
I’m happy to help you out, Junior!
Is there anything that people do that you think they should stop doing?
Is there anything that people should start doing that they currently do not?
Hey. It’s been almost a week and you still haven’t drawn up a list of objective moral values. What’s the holdup?
Is there anything that people do that you think they should stop doing?
Make baseless claims about the existence of objective morality they can’t back up.
Is there anything that people should start doing that they currently do not?
Compile that list of objective moral values they assert every single person on earth has written inside them.
You’re not serious.
You’re trolling, Junior.
Uh, hello? Are you a robot? I asked you what point you’re trying to make?
Thursday is correct in Hawaii. Friday is correct in Honolulu.
But, in neither place was it “Sunday.”
And, in neither place did the earth ROTATE SLOWER THAN USUAL, which is what my grandfather convinced himself. He also thinks the freckle on his arm has been moving around his body.
You still want to argue he’s technically right?
Science informs us that the earth’s rotation fluctuates. Perhaps your grandfather is more attuned to those variations than the rest of us.
Uh-huh. That’s probably it.
And the freckle?
I’ll leave that diagnosis to a licensed dermatologist. 🙂
Naturally.
I’m not sure dermatologists exist.
But if they do, it’s going to be impossible to know exactly when to go in for an appointment.
Just go in when Brigadoon appears.
Ron finally got around to making his point. He must have come from KIA’s place.
“Can’t know for sure if Thursday exists…so we sure can’t know if morality exists!”
And he just asked me for the ‘universal set of rules’.
I already knew he was a member of KIA’s church. So far, they’re the only ones who want to take the crazy man’s side on this issue. 😉
Wonder how long before he tells me to Have a Nice Day?
Try speaking in Haiku… or have your point embroidered on a tie.
Tell him the set of universal morals can be found listed on the Cosmic Tie!
They seem to like that stuff.
( Item #1 on the list–don’t eat chicken.)
He suggested I needed to consult a dermatologist to figure out whether Grandpa’s freckle is actually relocating.
You really think he’s hear to discuss?
Nope. He’s slow trolling. Like they all do the first time.
I probably pissed him off just now.
Yes, there. That’s what I was waiting for. 🙂
Thank you for not drawing it out further.
I’ll send him back to Pastor Mike so they can discuss how objectively horrible I am.
Just one correction: this isn’t technically “Junior’s” first time here.
He commented last April.
https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2016/04/06/why-should-i-be-nice-to-you/comment-page-1/#comment-1475
I know. But he didn’t engage.
This time, he had a plan!
How I imagine the Atheist comment sections, after a long day at the Sojourn:
http://image.wikifoundry.com/image/1/uqEUmH1FaVkYe-1WWJk-Gw158251/GW404H338
You give them too much credit.
They are nowhere near that organized.
They don’t like each other enough to stand that close together.
…Dang, he’s back.
Does that mean he’s ready to talk like a grown-up?
Don’t care. He doesn’t get a response until tomorrow. I sent him out to the hallway.
Meanwhile, here’s a better picture of the Atheist Congregation, when they retreat back to base:
http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/24/24c69a91540d4cb3a29687036268cc45156cbf2b3dae137439a28112b656fe2b.jpg
You see tomorrow’s post? It’s in the pending section.
Not yet. I’ll look.
Oh, goody! I’ll get to use my Richard Lewontin quote in the comments again! 🙂
(Also, I corrected your spelling and updated the draft. Hopefully that’s okay. If not–too bad. Evolution doesn’t judge, and you can’t either.)
What did I misspell?
You wrote “breath the breath of its nostrils” or something like that.
I added an ‘e’.
Well, at least he pinged back, I guess.
Actually, Thursday isn’t Thursday in some places. In some countries, the calendar starts with Monday as the first day so Thursday is… Wednesday. Or ‘tree day’… (Or water, by the other calendar) 😉
Calendars tell the day by cultural agreement of what day is what day. Really, without calendars Thursday would be quite indistinguishable from Saturday. Not absolute but relative. You might even say… “There is no spoon”… er, Thursday. Enjoy the day. -kia
How often does time move backwards?
Ah… The post wasn’t about time’s progress. It was about conventions of days on a calandar
“Dad insisted…I’m not kidding…that time must have gone backwards.”
No. It wasn’t about conventions. It was about a man who literally thinks time flows backwards.
Traditionally in Asian societies, the years are marked by the twelve signs, and the passage of 5 cycles, or 60 years, is marked as a special ‘rebirth’ birthday for those who reach the age. Time does go backwards to zero.
My dad counted his birthdays backward from his 40th. It’s not absolute or written in the heavens that one way of counting the days of the week is the ‘evident’ and undeniable way for everyone or every culture.
Uh-huh.
So my grandpa was right.
He also says the freckle on his arm has been crawling around. That’s probably true, too.
Did the Good Pastor Mike actually suggest that telling Dad the day of the week is a strawman argument?
Honestly, I don’t know what he thinks he’s saying.
But I’m starting to understand how he justifies telling all of us he “surrendered” and “won’t be participating in the sojourn anymore,” but still shows up when he pleases.
Maybe January 18th, when he surrendered, hasn’t actually happened yet.
I think you’re on to something!
Maybe he surrendered on a day that only happens every 100 years, when Brigadoon appears.
In his culture, you can tell someone you’ll never see them again one day, and then visit them every, single day “after” that, without perjuring yourself.
All you have to do is say, “It’s not Thursday. Time is going backwards.”
Is that why JZ says ‘Goodbye’ and then posts dozens more comments?
It must be!
#Science
You are correct.
But it makes it really hard to know when to give my Dad his medicine when we use his system for tracking time.
That’s why different cultures make ‘agreements’ on how to mark time and assign dates, but no… they aren’t universal or ‘evidently’ true for all cultures. Just their own. So your analogy fails
I didn’t say time and dates are universally true for all cultures.
I said it was ‘Thursday’ in the place/culture where my Dad and I live.
So your objection fails.
Every objection you have raised here has failed.
You surrendered to save your sanity, remember?
I read the post.
I’m an idiot, remember?
How if must vex you when an idiot repeatedly proves smarter than you.
Have a Nice Day Full of Humility and Suffering that Brings You to Your Knees Before God.
But Dad–you are a Christian… therefore, you are supposed to believe that what is spiritually true for your father in Indiana SHOULD BE true for all cultures. That’s what Christians believe. Probably. So, if you are putting the word “Thursday” into a Bible verse (which you did), then KIA has the right to come in here and explain why that verse is out of context and your Theology is wrong and you’re not as good of a Christian as he used to be.
Probably.
I guess it could seem to… if your calendar went from 31 to 1, or the clock on your wall went ‘counter clockwise’. The post was more about how we Mark time and agree which days are which. That is not self evident or absolute. It’s a cultural agreement, as I said in my comment, that not all cultures or people agree on the same way.
Face it. The post is built on a strawman and a false analogy
The post was meant to be interpreted by people who have an agreed-upon definition of “time” and “moving” and “backward.”
But, maybe you read something else into it…
…and that’s okay.
All interpretations of this post are correct.
A false analogy?
Do you show up for work on specific days of the week or have you told your boss that days don’t actually exist?
No–not that days don’t exist… but he’s saying it could just as easily be another day! That usually works, right? (He also starts drinking at 8:00am because “It’s 5:00 somewhere.”) 😉
Yeah. Fascinating insight. “Different cultures do things differently.”
Oh, the pixie thing? That was a simple illustration about claims and the burden of proof to support the claimants proposition. Any confusion on your part is regrettable.
I’m not confused. I’ve heard this Atheist song 1000 times.
I don’t care what you believe.
I don’t care what you “dis” believe.
Why are you here?
I never lie. I am not a Christian. I have no need to lie.
I think it is admirable that you jump to Wally’s defense whenever he makes a complete arse of himself, as did Mandy after Jasmine said Einstein was a Christian.
You two are like a Benevolent Society for interminably stupid indoctrinated Christians.
So sweet.
What can I say, we’re a family!
An interminably stupid indoctrinated family.
Yes … you are. Suffer the little children to stay away from you.
You ever think of starting an orphanage, Ark? You could take all these poor, hapless kids in!
Excellent idea!
Ark could take them in, feed them, give them shelter and say NOTHING to them…ever. So they will grow into mature, well adjusted atheists! Free from all indoctrination!
Sadly no. I am neither qualified or financially that flush.
I wonder what all the other Atheists’ excuses are. Meanwhile, I should introduce you to one (another one!) who is smarter than Dawkins.
Matthew Parrish– http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/matthewparris/article2044345.ece
Well good for Matthew!
“Good for Matthew!”
Diggety-Dig-Doug-Dug is oblivious to what is going on here.
If he does start an orphanage, he should not be allowed near the children.
Apparently, “Good for [insert name]” is his enlightened response to the thoughts of his fellow atheists.
To that I say, “Good for Ark!”
You’re certainly more qualified than the interminably stupid indoctrinated Christians running all the orphanages!
You should figure out the financing and get started immediately. Talk to your enlightened, godless friends. Talk to Tildeb!
I bet you raise millions of dollars if you pooled the resources of your atheist community. This is a great cause!
I was thinking of more practical applications … along the lines of contraception.
Yes! Buy my contraception!
(The synthetic hormone in ‘the Pill’ is horrible. I hated the side effects, and so do most of the women I’ve ever discussed the issue with. But you can buy our condoms for us, if you’d like! Just make the check out to “Amanda McKinney.”) Will the empathetic, humanitarian Atheists be funding vasectomies, too?
Wouldn’t the empathetic Christians?
We’re busy with those orphanages that you excused yourself from being involved with.
I’m starting to think you don’t REALLY care about preventing children from being indoctrinated. :/
Good for you!
https://plus.google.com/111555161323178106609/posts/KgKshEGLM9N
John,
How can someone admit they are wrong, unless there is such a thing as objective right and wrong?
Why, one would have to believe in absolute truth to do that!
And an external, supreme valuation of what is right or wrong, be it morals, facts, history, or declaration of the best NFL quarterback of all time (my vote is for Elway), would be necessary for a final declaration.
Where can we find such a supreme authority to judge when a person is wrong?
Dave
Hebrews 12:22-24 (ESV) – But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
Tell us, Dave!
Well, I can judge whether or not it’s Thursday. The other questions require a higher court.
i figure that everyone “believes something” even if that something is “nothing”… and that would be something….
You’ll have to take that up with the non-believers.
no that you are “de–converted” what is your answer….. i am not even going to attempt to write out the actual term for fear of spell check converting (hope this word doesn’t offend now) it to something obscene
I de-converted from whatever faith the atheist ascribed to me. I’m not precisely sure what it was but I know it wasn’t Christianity. The atheists apparently build their worldview on a void. I’ve never been able to understand a faith in literally nothing. That’s why I said you’ll have to ask the non-believers. 🙂
so would you call that “void of faith” or “faith in void”… i know i have to ask the non-believer that don’t believe in anything but their non-belief… wait isn’t that belief….
NO! If Tildeb hears you say the words ‘belief’ and ‘atheism’ in the same sentence, he will respond with a million word definition of non-belief.
And you will have nobody to blame but yourself when that happens.
thank you for the heads up. i don’t have time to write that much let alone read it…
Boom. Unless you can admit there’s a possibility you’re wrong, you’re doomed to never learn anything new for the rest of your life. Honestly, one of the most humble things you can admit is “I don’t know”.
“I don’t know” is humble to a point.
When I’m looking at three different calendars telling me it’s Thursday, it’s not humble or helpful to say “I can’t be sure what today is”.
Touche. At some point you need to make an assumption based on whatever proof you have, since no amount of proof is %100 airtight to a creature with an imagination.
“But what IF… the eggs gained sentience and discovered this world was too grievous to live in, so they committed suicide in a frying pan…”
Honestly, what happened before the Big Bang? I don’t know?
Did a god create the universe? I don’t know.
Did a god create life? I don’t know.
Do you?
No, but I believe.
Believe what?
“What” is inconsequential in this debate. You lack belief, I have it.
Belief in what?
Does it matter for this argument?
Indeed it does!
Why?
Because what we beleive shapes how we approach life. Including how we carry those beliefs to others.
So, belief in what?
Not everything a person believes is carried to others. Some may choose to share their beliefs, others are simply content to live out of them. I believe many things. Do you believe in anything, or does your lack of belief cross all spectrums?
Agreed.
However, where religion is involved it and in your version of Christianity, proselytization is commanded.
This is nothing but indoctrination …. and it is also abusive, as it effectively removes choice for the child.
Do you teach about Islam Judaism or Hinduism?
It is very difficult and, depending on the degree of religious indoctrination, can be quite traumatic for the individual.
Would you like to read the testimony of several adult deconverts who to this day suffer from certain aspects of their former faith? Where they are advised to check for trigger warnings when reading certain religious material?
You may consider this nonsense, but you would be regarded as somewhat cruel if you adopted a similar attitude toward a veteran’s PTSD.
Considering the way you interpret Christianity, it’s not surprising some deconverts experience PTSD. And I think your definition of proselytism is skewed from the way it is meant to be practised.
Let’s stick to the other thread. I’ll answer this along with the rest of your comment once you demonstrate that what you beleive about your god it the absolute truth, okay?
At what age can I allow my kids to read YOUR sermons against proselytizing, Ark?… Should I just tell them, “Some religions teach that it’s wrong to teach anything, even though they also claim that right/wrong are majority opinions?”
Also, my kids assign agency right now. I know this because I asked the sand castle question, and my 5-year-old said there must have been a Builder.
Can I tell her, “No Builder required.” ?
Or is that proselytizing?
If you watch the God Delusion video you can see what other Christians are teaching their young kids so you can get an idea of what a proper Christian upbringing involves.
One Colorado church runs a program called Hell Church ( or something) One pastor writes plats about Hell. Give you one guess what that involves. Clue? Dante’s inferno.
And they believe emphatically that is it is imperative to indoctrinate through fear to ensure children are not led astray and are not tempted by homosexuality. Like they have a choice!
How’s that?
Just up your street I should imagine.
Or, you could teach that adultery should be punishable by death, as one Christian stated … on camera.
So much choice of doctrine with which to poison the mind of your 5 year old.
And remember, as a genuine Christian parent, as you are, I am sure, they are never to young to be scared shitless by fundamentalist religion, Amanda.
If I watch the God Delusion, I will see what maybe four Christians are teaching their young kids. And–I guarantee you–Atheists do not have the ability to condemn them.
Only someone with the Truth can tell a religious Fundy why they’re wrong.
(Also, Richard Dawkins?! I didn’t think you’d ever bring him up again, after I showed you where he said “Rape is arbitrary.” I’d find another mentor, if I were you.)
Not at all. The church in Colorado cost 50 million ( I think this was the figure) to build and has a congregation of 11,000.
Not chicken feed at all.
I suggest you spend more time reading Michael Ruse: “The God Delusion makes me embarrassed to be an Atheist.”
Or maybe the father of secular humanism, Paul Kurtz: “I think [the New Atheists] are atheist fundamentalists. They’re anti-religious and they’re mean spirited, unfortunately. Now, they are very good atheists and very dedicated people who do not believe in God. But you have this aggressive and militant phase of atheism, and that does more damage than good.”
Those two are smarter than Dawkins and Harris.
Ah … so you weren’t swayed by the 11,000 seater in Colorado?
Lol…
I will not defend Dawkins, he does a good enough job himself.
And of course he also shows the viewer other religions, such as Judaism and Islam.
Remember your ego Amanda?You’re religion is not that special merely one
among many.
Maybe?
Can you demonsrate this or is it just an opinion?
Atheist Gary Wolf has got you (and Dawkins) pegged, too!
I’d look into following Gary Wolf and stop allowing extremists like Dawkins to indoctrinate you.
Lol… you really are off the chart this morning, aren’t you?
Here’s Atheist Anthropologist Scott Atran:
Yeah, Scott sounds smarter than Dawkins, too.
If he is embarrassed I am sure the death cult of Christianity will welcome him with open arms.
Atheist Philosopher Thomas Nagel:
Good for Tom.
Oh, here’s (Atheist) Michael Ruse again: “I think Dawkins is ignorant of just about every aspect of philosophy and theology and it shows.”
Yikes!
And later in the debate, he said, “I think that you and Richard [Dawkins] are absolute disasters in the fight against intelligent design – we are losing this battle… what we need is not knee-jerk atheism but serious grappling with the issues…”
Obviously, I agree. Every time a New Atheist Disciple pops onto this blog, it’s an absolute DISASTER for Atheism.
Don’t you mean OoooowwetCH?
LOL!
I appreciate the “capital CH.”
I appreciate it very muuuuuuuuuuCH.
I knew you would.
Also, on the other thread, I think Limey wants to see God’s bones.
He will believe there is a Necessary Being, outside space and time, when you can show him the bones. 🙂
I’ve not been following that thread. The link got broken so I’m not getting updates.
They’ve got the Dolt to set them straight.
No…I was talking about the thread on THIS blog. (The other post. You’re discussing with him on The Omelette thread right now.)
I’ve already told him there are very SCIENTIFIC ways to determine whether something was done by an intelligence… like cave drawings. And he informed me we’ve also found human bones near the cave, so THAT’S how we know when an intelligent being is responsible for the tools and drawings we see. 🙂
Oh. Yeah.
The poor guy hit the wall at the very first post. He knows what it means to admit intelligence is necessary for order. So he just accuses me of ‘circular reasoning’ when I state what’s obviously true.
…also, his love life is controlled by the scientific method.
Well at least Ruse accepts that what you beleive is simply a crock of shit ( vernacular speaking) … he simply disagrees with Dawkin’s methodology.
I applaud him.
The more people that actually come to the party the better.
And if he has a better methodology then I am sure it will help.
Seriously,why you are quoting atheists just makes me laugh myself silly. And you don’t even realise just how dumb you come across!
Keep ’em coming.
Oh, I thought you wanted to talk about “The God Delusion” and how it exposes Christianity for what it REALLY is! I thought you wanted people to watch it?
But maybe you just “have the hots” for Dawkins:
(link) https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2016/10/04/christians-are-learning-disabled/comment-page-1/#comment-6425
LOL!
Oh it does!
No, I didn’t really want to talk about it. I just thought you might be interested in watching it.
No, I have the hots for your dad …
Mind you, come to think about it, you spend a lot of time here as well ..
So it will be a few more months before you mention Dawkins again.
Good. 🙂
I’ve demonstrated what I wanted to demonstrate. You agree with Dawkins when it’s convenient, but you don’t understand any of the specifics about his arguments. (That’s why New Atheism is so popular on the internet. Any idiot can say, “HEY, YOU SHOULD READ/WATCH THE GOD DELUSION BECAUSE DAWKINS DESTROYS RELIGION!” …and the idiots believe that’s actually what happened.)
But, his methodology sucks. Which is why his conclusions suck. And he believes rape isn’t REALLY, objectively wrong. It’s just societal opinion. So… now that other Christians have the chance to see that you will blindly support anyone who is against Christianity, even if you don’t know why, there’s nothing left to say.
Have the last word! (And, please, make it full of the vitriol of Atheist Fundamentalism that Michael Ruse condemns. It would be deliciously ironic.)
Convenient?
He is an atheist. I am an atheist.
What else is there to say?
…and Ark
…and JZ
…and Tildeb
…and Violet
…and
A few months ago, Ark accused ME of being obsessed with Dawkins, because I kept asking whether he agrees that rape is “arbitrary,” as Dawkins said.
There’s an audio recording of him admitting that our belief that rape is wrong is just as “arbitrary” as the fact that we have five fingers instead of six. That’s consistent Naturalism! But Ark said he disagreed, even though he couldn’t explain why…
Here’s where he told me Dawkins doesn’t speak for him:
https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2016/09/04/in-defense-of-oppression/comment-page-1/#comment-4119
And here’s where he said he thinks I “have the hots” for Dawkins, because I kept rubbing the quote in his face:
https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2016/10/04/christians-are-learning-disabled/comment-page-1/#comment-6425
Wait.
…are you suggesting that Ark is unhinged?
Wowza! That hadn’t occurred to me!
Dawkins is correct, rape is arbitrary. If you cared about what you believe is truth you would counter claims with evidence not conjecture. Based on your dialog with what’s his name I think there may be a language problem. First, atheism is not a concept, philosophy, moral code, avenue to truth, social construct, political movement….. it is simply the rejection of the claim that a god, any god, exists. You say “I was abducted by pixies”. I say the proof can be found in a book. I could ass kick your logic but why waist my time when “I don’t believe you” is all that civil discourse requires of me. Come on, make an effort.
Thanks, Nation.
Ark said he disagreed with Dawkins about rape, but couldn’t explain why.
I’m not sure why you’re inserting yourself. I didn’t say I was abducted by pixies. I’ve said that right and wrong are objective.
And, when someone suggests the Universe is an unintentional phenomenon, I say, “I don’t believe you.”
Why?
That’s all the civil discourse requires.
Also, 11,000 is quite a bit less than the number of people who follow this blog.
LOL!
Stop the presses! Alter the media! 11,000 people in Colorado spend two hours a week sitting in a room with someone Richard Dawkins interviewed!
Hi Ark
You said
“Would you like to read the testimony of several adult deconverts who to this day suffer from certain aspects of their former faith? Where they are advised to check for trigger warnings when reading certain religious material?
You may consider this nonsense, but you would be regarded as somewhat cruel if you adopted a similar attitude toward a veteran’s PTSD.”
Well first. “Decons” aren’t traumatized by their former faith. They are self traumatized because they, like EVERYBODY knows in their rejecting hearts they are wrong, and it scares them. See John’s Reference to Romans 1:20
Second, Your comparison of those who reject God with veteran’s who suffer PTSD shows just how moronic and clueless you truly are. To a deconvert, at trigger warning just means “Hey quit telling me this stuff I know is true, because I feel convicted, and how can I continue my rejection of God if you keep telling me about Him?”
Did I mention that your comparing those people with honorable men and women who have put their lives on the line so that morons like you can be free and spout the garbage you do is…moronic and stupid?
I must have missed Ark’s PTSD veteran comment! (I only read about 1/4 of the 10,000 words he wrote on various posts, while North America was sleeping.)
But I totally agree with you. To be “triggered” by WORDS isn’t even close to being at the other end of a LITERAL “trigger.” Are Christian children being beaten, starved, and held at gun-point until they recite the Lord’s Prayer? If so, that’s a serious problem which the law can (and should) deal with already.
However, we all know that’s not the norm. In MOST cases, Decons are young people who never grow out of the Angsty-Teen-“I hate you, Mom and Dad!” Stage. On the one hand, I DO blame their parents for not teaching them to think for themselves. But to champion these bitter, damaged, Adult-Babies as the heroes of a movement seems like a bad move. They were indoctrinated, remember?! You can’t trust their testimonies! Their brains are broken. 😉
Yeah, the comparison of folks who willingly reject…and those who willingly served…kind of flew all over me a bit.
Like your point about Christians teaching our kids to think. If we did that more instead of just spouting our doctrine they would be safer and far less vulnerable out there in the world.
The problem with thoughtful children is that they sometimes arrive at different conclusions than their parents.
My mom has been mad at me more than once. At the end of the day, she admits that she still loves me.
…and don’t even get me started on how much I’ve suffered with Amanda.
Ha!! How funny.
Makes a point though.
Indoctrination goes both ways whether these guys admit or not. I spent my kids entire lives teaching them God was stupid, evil, and Christians were pin headed idiots.
I did a good job too.
Because of the Truth “we are here for a reason, and we are SEEN,” I can face anything. I’m handing my children a weapon of mental strength. They may not agree with me on every point (and I certainly hope they DON’T). But they will have the confidence to reason through the “why.”
Even death itself doesn’t scare a person who knows their goal is to seek Truth, no matter what.
Well..I was talking to you Dad just now.
My biological kids are not believers. I did a most fine job of teaching them that God is a no good monster, and Christians are idiots. They still believe that
My step kids…irony of irony..if anybody indoctrinate anybody it was them to me LOL. I did bring a lot of questions to the table, which has been good for them too.
@Wally
Aah, such a wonderful, warm-hearted comment, full of empathy and compassion….. definitely worthy of a post all of its own.
Hang fire….
As Arnie once said…
I’ll be back!
Really? You compare and elevate as heroes people whose only accomplishment is to turn their back on what they know is true to people who have risked everything, and will live with memories forever?
Go ahead, write your post. Nobody will read in but the cackling pack of hyenas over at your place.
Post written…and up..
You sound as if you are having a bad day, Wally?
Ah typical Ark.
The problem is always me and not the fact that you are a bile spewing moron.
You know what you said was wrong. But you really wouldn’t understand what it means to be willing to sacrifice yourself for another. That would be because you only care about….Ark.
Sort of reminds me of another sacrifice. But, you know all about that one.
Seriously Wally..chill.Why do you beleive I know what i said was wrong?
Oh yeah, I forgot. You never did come up with that whole reason for why anything was wrong thing.
Sorry, it was expedient for you, therefore not wrong
Thanks for clarifying
Moron
Well..your post was just as moronic and stupid as I suspected it would be. Thanks for the invite for your friends to some leave me a “personal” message.
Tell em bring it.
It is simply a copy of your comment!
So if its stupid and moronic well … it’s what you wrote.
Justify it Ark..Mr Science proves everything
Show me the peer reviewed studies on somebody like your friend Mike from AZ that shows he suffers from PTSD because of his faith. Go ahead, show with proof…data..that it is the same as a combat veteran suffering PTSD
Do it
Moron
I did not say deconverts suffer PTSD.
I think your anger is off the chart this morning. Or are you just messin’ with s, today, Wally?
Oh, and there are qualified specialists who deal with this form of post-decon religious trauma. It is a recognized illness. Go figure, right?
Seriously. I was surprised to.
I never realised just how fucked-up some people got because of religion.
But then, I listen to some one like you …and it all makes sense.
Take a chill pill.
No prob, bob
I am chillaxin.
🙂
For the record. Do you not think your comment was a tad ungodly and insensitive toward your former fellow Christians?
Would you offer such a rant to the face of a woman who went through Hell (sic) over fundamentalism?
Just curious to know how you would treat one of your god’s lost sheep?
Do you think Jesus would applaud your attitude or slap you round you stupid fat head for being such a callous sod?
Christianity is pretty handy for scolding people, Diggity-Doug-Doug!
Every pot-shot you take at Wally is another point for the faith! Keep firing!
Oh, I think of the fence sitters, Bonjon .
Wally is just …. well Wally.
You preach it brother ….
”’And he huffed and he puffed and he ” … well you know the rest, right?
Yes.
He blew your house down.
Really?
Smile…
Religion is built on a house of cards Bunyong. You any good at card tricks?
My card tricks have kept you enraptured for a long time.
Yes, how do you manage it with only a hand full of blanks and jokers?
I guess it must be that I am fascinated by just how far you can champion the idiocy of your faith.
And I see you have been visiting Violet’s blog? Well done! Stretch your legs a bit.
I seem to recall that you or daughter dearest once said you never venture onto atheist blogs?
Felt like a change of air, did you?
I told him the same thing yesterday, Ark! “If it were me, I wouldn’t be wasting my time over there. My motto is, ‘I don’t attend Atheist Church.'” If I’m featured in a post, I might swing by to let the other readers know where they can find me. (Since you and KIA sometimes–oops–forget to include a link.) But I don’t go round and round and round on Atheist blogs.
…and, as soon as I uttered this disagreement with my dad, he grabbed me by the hair and shouted, “Quiet, woman!”
I never forget to include a link. Ever.
From your post(the one with NO link LOL)
Awkward
In what way, awkward, Wally?
Never mind, Amanda cleared it up. You don’t forget to include links, you intentionally leave them out.
LOL
Yes! You figured it out … or rather Amanda did for you.
(Wally: he didn’t deny that he leaves off links on purpose. He said he never FORGETS to include a link.)
Oh yeah…good point.
I struggle with comprehension
I’m a fundy ya know.
Nah, he was ambiguous on purpose.
Obviously an intentional distraction from my point: I go to Atheist blogs from time to time to provide a link, when they fail to attribute their source. The fact that it’s done on purpose makes it worse.
Science!!
…and, just like that, Ark has demonstrated PRECISELY why I don’t attend Atheist Church. 🙂
It certainly does.
So he does lie, even though he’s not a Christian?
Since you have never seen my head in comparison to any other heads, your statement that it is big and fat is based completely on faith…in the unseen I might add.
Now, we are making progress
Ark has faith.
Smile…
If I call you a Dickhead will you also take the time to refute that your head is shaped like a penis?
Yeah .. you probably would.
I didn’t refute that my head was big and fat.
I just pointed out that, since you really don’t know the empirically, your statement was simply you weighing the evidence you have, tossing in some faith…and voila…a belief is born.
You have religion after all.
The Wally big fat head cult.
LOL!!
Actually your head is probably shaped like a penis. I’ll take that on faith …
Well, in this cult, thre is in fact some serious doctrinal debate about the exact shape of my head.
We will probably kill each other soon.
Dude! Hope your okay with the handle. I came to this thought circus late but so far I’m having a great time. Are these folk always this much fun.
Jump right in, the water’s tepid to warm, though some of them have a nasty habit of peeing in it!
😉
Congrats again, Wally!
You’ve lead Ark to faith. Well done.
Thanks John!
There is such a thing as PTCS. Look it up. Recovery is no picnic
Seriously, everyone! Look it up!
LOL!
Post Traumatic Church Syndrome, or PTCS for short, doesn’t appear in the DSM IV and I’m quite sure it won’t make the DSM V either, no matter how controversial the new manual will be. However, I am convinced that thousands of Americans have experienced some level of PTCS as a result of church related trauma.
What is PTCS? Well, it’s not an official illness, so there’s not an official definition.
Patheos seens to disagree with you on that Mike
PTCS is a term invented by a Millennial, for her publicity-stunt MEMOIR! lol!
Along the same lines as Rachel Held Evans and Jen Hatmaker, it’s very popular among female writers my age to do a cheap “year-long” gimmick to sell books. They’ve discovered, if they write about church critically, they can get BOTH Christians and non-Christians to read it….and, since they still use the name of God and have (technically) created a small “church” following of their own, they can still be branded under the religious department at Simon and Schuster.
Savvy businesswomen! Also: precisely the kind of self-focused DISGRACE to actual PTSD sufferers you were talking about. For KIA to bring up cutesy play-on-words in a supposed “humor” book (as if it’s not a perfect example of disrespect for real PTSD) shows a hilarious lack of awareness.
http://rhinoden.rangerup.com/mean-tweets-and-ptsd-facts-and-fakers/
Exactly.
hi wally. how was your pork? looked fantastic. too bad i can’t have that anymore. health reasons, you know 🙁
It was great. Only ate a nibble, as it is for a later function.
Do not keep honoring his tripe with your responses.
He has no friends to deliver any messages.
You can gain enlightenment from atheist blogs by reading the comments that they have for one another when they’re not mocking people like you.
…there are none. Ark has nothing to say until Wally makes a comment.
When you’re not the subject of ridicule, they turn on each other. They snipe and ridicule their ‘friends’. It’s fascinating.
I know John..waste of time. The veteran thing flew all over me, though.
I get it.
Upsetting you is all he has. Elevate above his ridicule and he is utterly powerless.
You walk in the light of Almighty God. What power do a heathen’s lies have over you?
Not a bit!
I think I know your argument but I’m not sure. The part about the trauma a”decon” experiences is self induced in an desperate effort to resist the will of God?
Actually nation, you don’t know my argument at all.
The common claim is the every deconvert has somehow been traumatized by faith.
Obviously many awful things are done to people, even by Christians.
There seems to be an undercurrent among decons that, for a believer to tell them they are wrong is somehow an affront.
My only argument, in nutshell, was that to compare being told you are wrong to the horrors men and women experience in a ways is simply absurd.
Decons make their choice
Choices are not consequence free.
The conviction of the Holy Spirit is a traumatic event. The cure for it is belief.
Thanks for asking.
Thanks for your explanation to my inquiry. I do believe I understand the point you are making. Your argument is based solely on your conjecture for causality. A more effective, and honest, approach would be to put forward your supposition with corroborating evidence in support of your premise. If there is no evidence available for the claim that does not mean you are wrong. However, should you stake your flag in the validity of your supposition without evidence then your argument is fallacious. This line of inquiry has a satisfying terminus and it is, I don’t know.
Sir, I am a decorated Vietnam combat veteran. I spent over 16 months in a line company operating in the Mekong Delta. I have literally bled in my countries service. I receive monthly disability payments from the VA for PTSD and other service related health issues. I am also an atheist. I want you to know that your boogie man under may bed is not real and no bed time story will make it so.
Thank you for your service!
1 You are a veteran
2 You receive disability payments monthly.
3 You are an atheist
4 God is not real
Do I understand your syllogism correctly?
Not remotely. One has nothing to do with the other. I was responding to two separate issues. One regarding PTSD. The other, validating your claims.
Well thanks much for your sacrifice that means much to me
I fear our friend Ark was only using the example to make his point
I think you would agree that is a poor correlation.
That was the sole and only point I had for him
It is a complete fallacy that I have to prove God. He has proved himself and my only job is to tell it. I could spend days going through evidence and we would not agree I am sure. I even better you have heard it all before.
Again thanks for your service and peace and blessings to you
Thank you for your appreciation of all veterans service. The recognition at the time was accusatory.
As to your assertion for the “proof” for the existence of god is by definition is fallacious. Your are conflating conjecture with evidence. If you actually had such evidence you would be the most celebrated human in history. Go ahead, dazzle the world. The entire storyline makes no sense and because I am not willing to write a thesis on the topic I suggest you condense the story ark to outline form starting with the Gods attributes (omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent) this will lead to the answer of free will. Then begin with genesis and ask yourself what parent with a fruit baring tree and a talking in the yard would say, kids don’t eat the beautiful red apples and not worn them about a trickster snake and just leave. Human protective services would put them in protective custody. It gets worse not better.
The exodus fable where god sends plagues and pharaoh try’s to capitulate and god literally makes him change his mind. WTF, at that point he seems to be just showing off. Then three million slaves who have experienced all this are freed. That many people linked together would span the entire distance. So wonder, wonder, wonder part the see then destination, finally. (No physical evidence for this). Then Mo takes some personal time and while away the people decided they’ve had it this plague causing, sea parting God and a slaves are want to do. They gather everyones gold to melt down. No of this make a lick of sense. Done
Wow. OK
Um…you understand that even if you proved every word in the Bible false, that doesn’t rule out the existence of a Creator.
Let’s keep this basic for now. I’d be real interested in your view of how all this…universe…came to be. Answer that with science and you would actually be the most celebrated human in history.
Because we just aren’t ready to be running through the books of the Bible pretty much illustrates that you don’t understand Christian theology very much.
So…what caused all of…this.?
Wow, back at ya. To the question for the beginning of the universe, I don’t know the answer and no one else does either. This should not be a surprise to anyone. I am not a cosmologist nor physicist. I am a retired Real Estate Broker with a curiosity about my world. To that end I want to know as many true things as possible. I’m thrilled to be proven wrong. My kids tell me I’m wrong all the time and I’m learning to dial down my ego and focus on the new information being presented. Critical thinking has to be learned and it’s harder than I imagined. Like most people I carry with me biases that are a product of my inculturation. To help me determine the validity to a proposition I use the only proven method we have to help us investigate anything. To answer a mystery with an even bigger mystery tell us nothing.
For the love of “god,” Wally, disengage! lol!
Disengage!!!! (That’s my attempt at military jargon, for the vets.) 😉
Clearly, he’s cut from the same cloth as Ark–but with even LESS coherency. Plus, the grammar and punctuation! I know this is the internet, but my eyes are bleeding.
That was pretty cool jargon, Amanda. I hope you don’t use it against me during the butchering.
Lol. I was just going to say, “If you make me read too much more of Nope’s rambling, we will have to move that butchering up in our schedules.”
Yeah. well it has to be earlier on Wednesdays. That’s my “day off” meaning I work from the house. Wednesday night is our kiddie indoctrination time, and it takes lots of adults to properly subdue them Tonight I have the feeding duty, so had to cook for them this afternoon.
Meant to say
in a war, not in a ways. Sorry autospell strikes again.
Hi again Nation
Perhaps you can answer a question no other militant atheist seems to be able to answer
If your atheism is simply empty and without content, how come you all say the same things.
Ya’ll have more doctrine than a Baptist
Amen!!! There is no wisdom or understanding or counsel against the Lord. Proverbs 21:30