Octavia Rogers killed her children.
These innocent lives were the victims of bad religion.
The spilled blood of these little humans testifies against the ideology that religions are all the same.
All religion is not the same.
Some religion is evil.
Evil is any religion based exclusively on the whims of human beings.
Evil is any religion that professes ‘there is no God’.
There is a God.
If God does not exist, who will atone for Octavia’s Babies?
Who will put the universe in balance?
Three innocent children are dead…
…who can make that right?
What sufficient apology can be made?
How many tears will wash away the stain?
If there is no God, there is no cause for outrage.
The universe cares nothing for human life.
Without God, there is no meaning in three dead babies.
Without God, there is no point in crying for justice.
Without God, justice is whatever each man makes it.
But there is a God.
And He knows when sparrows fall.
He is the source of justice…
…and life.
Those who seek Him, always find Him.
Those who find Him, know goodness.
And goodness knows that Jesus doesn’t tell mothers to kill their children.
Sometimes bad religion pretends to be Christianity.
Sometimes wolves pretend to be sheep.
God is always Truth.
The Truth will always prevail.
77 Responses
Can someone explain these two steps to me:
‘No God… no cause for outrage’
‘God… cause for outrage’
They don’t self-evidently follow. And I can’t imagine what the inbetween premises are.
The universe doesn’t care and the universe doesn’t balance for any concept of justice. But I don’t know what that has to do with humanity and feelings. No that’s a nonsequitur.
I’m so lost as to what John even thinks he means.
The definition of God is the “Ultimate Cause.” So, if there’s no God, then there’s no “cause” for ANYTHING–including the chemical-reaction we’ve come to call “outrage.”
If God created us to seek Him, then it’s the same as saying we were created to seek Truth, and by extension to seek Justice. So–yes–if there’s a God, then we have a CAUSE for outrage.
If there’s no God, then we can reduce our outrage to matter. Particles. The sadness and frustration and hunger for retribution begins and ends with our own heads. Nothing more.
That seems to me as wrong at both ends. Calling God the ultimate cause is questionable for various reasons, and diminishing human experience is laughable.
We can get into why, but you might want read my penultimate post on my blog as a starter.
Nobody is “diminishing human experience.” Just pointing out that human experience is part of nature. So, like nature, it either has an Ultimate, transcendent cause. Or it’s all just as meaningless as the particles that built it.
But that’s not diminishing it? Saying it only matters if there is a God doesn’t diminish human experience?
I explained why that HAS to be the case.
I also invited you to explain how/why something like outrage could really matter, in a world without God.
If the whole Universe came into existence without purpose, then everything in the Universe is the same.
That’s YOUR position, not mine.
I believe human experience is deeply meaningful because it points to the larger reality.
I don’t see how your ‘larger reality’ can possibly be more important than experience. (Not to mention the fact it doesn’t follow that experience points to a larger reality.)
I’ve got another post called something like ‘the Nietzsche fallacy’ which addresses this.
I’m sorry, I’m really not sure I can say it better.
If the entire Universe exists for no purpose, then we’re only kidding ourselves by trying to make “purpose” out of the smaller details.
The meaning that we keep giving to our emotions–as JB explained to Carmen–is nothing more than another religion. It’s just another attempt by humans to build something larger than themselves out of, essentially, nothing.
But why do we keep doing that? Why do we keep looking for purpose and meaning and validation of our “experience?”
Why do we allow ourselves to feel “outrage” over murdered babies, when we don’t feel the same outrage when a cat abandons her kittens?
Why–even though we have been taught it’s “just chemicals”–do we have such a hard time actually living as though that’s true?
If you can’t be introspective enough to value even your own emotion in its own right, then I’m afraid we have no common ground to discuss this on.
Thing is, I can be indifferent about God and God-inspired purpose. There’s nothing more objective about this with a God.
“….value your own emotion in its own right” sounds like something a Buddhist would say, doesn’t it? Sure, you’ve taken God out of the equation. But if you believe people SHOULD “value their emotions,” that’s a religious opinion. It certainly didn’t come from a peer-reviewed paper. š
And you didn’t answer my questions about WHY all of us are so compelled to religionify everything.
Define religion…
Science describes how nature behaves.
Religion explains how it OUGHT TO behave.
Religion also makes claims as to how it is… So that’s not right.
You asked how I’m using the word, and that’s how I define it.
Now there is some overlap, because a good Theist will adjust his or her view of God with everything that science tells us… But, generally, science tells us “how” while religion tells us “why?”
I agree with Johnathan H Taylor (1993 Nobel Prize in Physics) who said, āA scientific discovery is also a religious discovery. There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.ā
Cool. It’s been fun.
Thanks, Allallt.
Don’t leave me with these angry, name-calling unbelievers for such a long time again!
Pop in more often. š
It’s not personal. I find John’s posts painful.
Well, Allallt, welcome to the wonderful world of Branyan bloviating. It only makes sense to the chosen few. š
It always comes down to a chosen people…
Doesn’t it, just? š
Whenever you need a cheerleader, Allallt, look no further than Carmen. She has admitted multiple times that she has no idea what we’re talking about here. But that doesn’t stop her from coming in, day after day after day, to root for her favorite team! š
http://media.galaxant.com/000/080/112/desktop-1412267965.png
I do not follow your logic here, JB.
Will you elaborate?
Hey, Ark.
My mom and dad are vacationing in honor of their 30th anniversary. I’m not sure how much Internet time JB will get in the next two weeks. But, you can feel free to explain to him WHY humans should be outraged over murder, if there’s no God. (You may remember, this is similar to the conversation we had about Clarence Darrow–the Atheist lawyer who got a lesser sentence for a couple of murderers by arguing, “Who can blame them?” Nature does what nature does, and humans are just part of nature.)
mrsmcmommy,
John and Mrs. 30th? Praise God! Please pass along my congratulations. Thirty years of marriage is a near miracle in the 21st century, and a true way to honor God.
Dave
Proverbs 5:18 (ESV) – Let your fountain be blessed,and rejoice in the wife of your youth,
(Do forgive me for not quoting the next verse… I will leave that for you to read… /blush)
Yes, 30! š
Their children (all four of us) have some awesome goals to aspire to…
Proverbs 13:22 “A good person leaves an inheritance to their children’s children…” (I don’t think that’s talking about just money!)
Still doesn’t make sense. You will need to elaborate why humans cannot feel outrage at the death of these little ones at the hands of their own mother. Sounds as if she was out of her head on drugs.
And religion. She was, according to police reports, screaming about religion (wanting to return to Yhwh) as she murdered the kids, and even when the police found the kids in the closset.
Missed that part.
But she just seemed out of her head. Drugs from the report.
Octavia Rogers: Mom Who Fatally Stabbed Sons Screamed About Religion.
No…. YOU need to demonstrate some thinking power and explain where YOUR outrage is coming from.
Is that a serious question?
Are you truly saying my outburst of cheering when Adam Lallana scored for Liverpool over the weekend is because of Yahweh?
I’m saying you need to spend less time demanding answers from other people and more time analyzing your own actions.
What is grief? What is joy? How can I trust my judgment of these things?
If you’ve thought about it before, then what did you come up with?
And how would YOU write a eulogy for Octavia’s babies?
These are the types of questions every person should weigh for themselves in he quiet of the night.
But evolution answers all these questions and we have the scientific evidence to demonstrate it.
Even if a god existed, how would we know he was responsible?
And more importantly, as far as you are concerned , how would we know he was the Christian god, the character, Jesus of Nazareth?
These are the two paramount questions every Christian should weigh for themselves every minute of the day.
I’m sorry that someone told you “evolution explains it,” and that you simply believed them.
Science explains (sort of) what happens to people chemically and electrically, when they’re angry or sad. Science/evolution does NOT explain how we’ve come to put such a big emphasis on emotion.
…It’s such a big, scary question, that most Naturalists/Materialists don’t spend much time really wrestling with it.
As JB wrote up-thread, “[without God] Humanitarianism is a man-made construct. It’s just another religion.”
Okay, I’ll play.
Let us assume for argument’s sake a god is involved in the creation of human beings. Was responsible for our emotions, morality, and indirectly responsible for our choice of football team.
Now, how do we know this god is not the Australian Aboriginal god of creation,Dirawong.
Please explain, and cite references.
Thanks
No–let’s NOT assume God is involved. That’s not playing, Ark.
Let’s assume that whatever YOU think is true actually is true.
WHY DO YOU GET OUTRAGED OVER MURDER?
Because murder is not nice?
Really?
How do you decide what’s nice and what’s not?
Because I feel outrage and that is not a nice emotion.
So you’re outraged over not-nice things, and you know they are not nice because you feel outrage?
That sounds rather convoluted but effectively I believe you have hit the nail through the palm of the hand!
Well done!
So…if a fellow doesn’t feel outrage over murder then it’s okay?
I see
No.
And with that you have pretty much disqualified yourself from hanging out with normal people, Wally.
It’s funny in a not-so-funny way that people like Mike and Peter and several others think that you are basically a good guy.
You should consider yourself very lucky that you have the support of ex-Christians like these ( and a few others I can name) who are prepared to extend such courtesy toward you.
Personal I think you are an ignoramus.
Of course you do!
A point of view based solely on evidence, I might add.
It’s called circular reasoning there, genius.
But, you have to hand it to nature, right? It did a great job making you think your emotions are something other than particles!
Anyway… I have to get busy with my daughter’s language lesson. But feel free to head over to the newest post and watch the video on “Finding Shakespeare.”
To be clear: I won’t be posting any more comments on this old thread. But, I’d be interested to hear later what you think of “Finding Shakespeare,” if you comment on that thread.
Circular reasoning? Really? Well, you would be qualified to speak on this topic I guess.
However, I’ll stick with evolution, and science, if you and your god don’t mind?
John,
Truly a tragedy and one that makes a guy shake his head and wonder, “Will you return now, Lord Jesus, to set up your kingdom?” The time is ripe for the Return of Christ, methinks. Sure, it can get worse, but I don’t want to be around to see it. Heartbreaking stuff. Whenever I read of these murder/suicides I distantly ask the perpetrator, “Why could you have not just offed yourself? That would end your earthly worries and not take others with you.”
Dave
Luke 18: 15-17 (ESV) – Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them. And when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, āLet the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.ā
Nicely done John
Why ? Can you explain?
Hi Ark
Can I explain? Yes
Will I explain? Um…nope
I am pretty sure John gets it
And your game of “interrogate the Christian” is boring.
On the other hand, based on my following of these latest threads, you still have an outstanding issue to resolve. I’ll even help out, since we all know your NEXT question will be, “I’m sorry, what was the question?”
So, to assist, here again is the challenge put to you by Mrsmcmommy
” But, you can feel free to explain to him WHY humans should be outraged over murder, if thereās no God. ”
Or, Kevin’s question to John Zande, but maybe you can give it a go:
“JZ ā Why are you outraged about this event OR the others you listed in the previous thread (not counting the dogs you listed ā as dogs are different than people)?”
So..nah..not playing 20 questions with you.
I mean it, I don’t see the relevance of god in this equation.
I feel every gamut of emotions for a myriad of experiences and your god … or any god for that matter…. does not feature at all.
I am serious when i ask what has god got to do with one feeling outrage for what happened to these poor kids.
It is simply a human tragedy. And from the report I read, the woman seemed to be on drugs.
Seriously, what exactly am I missing here?
So..that’s your answer to the questions YOU were asked?
Um…ok den.
Weird
I am trying to figure how you see human emotion – outrage in this case – is directly attributed to your god.
Are you saying without your god we would be emotionless robots?
Is this what You, JB and Mrs Mc are driving at?
So…that is your answer to what you have been aksed
I see
Not an answer per say, a question to try to establish if my previous question is correct – that you believe that without your god, we would all be emotionless robots.
And I reiterate, is this the position you are touting?
Answer the question Ark
And your technique of trying to establish my position falsely by asking me questions is quite transparent and pathetic.
Answer the questions you have been asked
If you can
What is the frakking question ?
You haven’t asked a damn question.
You have repeated a presuppositional assertion – there is a god – and then tried to come across as intellectual by coveting it and thinking you look smart.
You don’t.
Establish that there is a god first and then show me how this god is the god you worship.
Then and only then can the question you ripped off be considered.
Do you understand you sanctimonious ignorant fucking half-wit?
Wow. That’s a very compelling argument you make Ark
Sigh…I suppose my faith is all in vain due to the fact that I am a half with
Thanks for clearing all that up for me
Meanwhile….back to the question?
Again. I cannot answer any god related question until we establish what any gos has to do with human emotion and in particular outrage over murder -especially as your god in his Yahweh form was the biggest murderer inn human history, and you don’t seem too pissed off about it?
Ah I see the disconnect
Actually the questions have zip to do with God…the question is about you
But obviously there will be no answer coming
Thanks anyway I suppose
I believe you don’t even understand the post , Wally which is why you have hijacked the question and are simply piggybacking.
I don’t have to explain anything. The onus is on the god believer as always.
You are not even able to formulate an intellectual response relying solely on others and your blind faith.
Maybe you should rather just read instead of commenting?
Ha..you may have a point there Ark, as you have proven yet again that conversation with you is of no more use than beating on my toes with a hammer.
It’s all yours mrsmcmonny. Since, according to Great Teacher, I have hijacked your post
š
No, not hijacked the post, Wally, but interjected believing you understand it. And you don’t.
No one should be scoring points on this sad story. But to deny she was Christian or to say that if you are either an atheist or non Christian you have no moral grounds for outrage… Amazing. What a sad story.
Right.
YOU have the moral high ground.
Thanks for the sermon, Pastor Mike.
We all have the same opportunity at what you call moral high ground. So sad this woman chose hers differently. And also sad you choose to exploit the deaths of her children to score debate points in your attempt at moral high ground.
Hey Pastor Mike,
The moral high ground is obtained by those humble enough to admit they need God in order to be moral. If you’re going to appeal to your personal sense of morality…save it.
Also sad is your attempt to score points by portraying this post as an attempt to do nothing but score points.
(How many times do you want to go around in this circle, Pastor?)
There is presupposition at work here and the onus is on you, therefore, to demonstrate the veracity of your god, the character,Jesus of Nazareth.
If there is no God, there is no cause for outrage.
What absolute, patent nonsense.
I must have missed the eulogy you wrote for Octavia’s babies, JZ.
Can you repost it here?
JZ – Why are you outraged about this event OR the others you listed in the previous thread (not counting the dogs you listed – as dogs are different than people)?
Gave you what you asked for, Windbag.
You got anything to back up your claim of ‘nonsense’ other than your perpetual, incoherent howl?
John doesn’t recognize that his outrage is caused by his humanitarianism. It has nothing to do with any god.
In a universe without God, humanitarianism is a man-made construct. It’s as meaningless as religion.
Spot on JB!
SeƱor