You’re a Christian?
What kind?
There are sooooo many!
Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Apostolic, Nazarene, Missionary Alliance, Evangelical, Lutheran, Catholic, Reformed, Restored, Regurgitated, Retreaded…?
Each and every denomination following the teaching of Christ.
When Jesus prayed:
“I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. “ – John 17:22
He probably meant ‘complete unity within their respective denominations’.
He didn’t literally mean, ‘COMPLETE’ unity!
That wouldn’t please God.
Because it would mean compromising important doctrines.
Stuff that really, really, really matters.
Like what day of the week to attend church.
How often to take communion.
Whether or not to use musical instruments.
And most importantly…[insert your MOST important denominational doctrine here]
Jesus didn’t intend for us to fellowship with [insert denomination other than yours]
Those people are wrong!
Dead wrong about [insert your MOST important doctrine again]!!
It isn’t my place to judge…
…but I’m sure God isn’t pleased.
I know. I know.
Christianity is all about Jesus.
But I can have Jesus AND specific pious teaching too.
My specific denominational sacred cow makes the good news even better.
Right?
So the ‘Kingdom of Heaven’ is fractured into thousands of tiny feifdoms.
It’s worth it to preserve [important denominational doctrine that must be preserved].
When Jesus prayed for unity…
…he didn’t know [insert heretical church name] would exist.
Disunity isn’t our fault.
It’s [that other denomination]’s fault for being disagreeable.
22 Responses
When the seed is planted the outside shell falls away so the actual live seed is exposed so it can grow. When we are called before the Father name of our church will have fallen away, and our hearts will be exposed. Has the unconditional love of God been feeding our hearts so we can love others in the same way, unconditionally. I don’t love people because of what church I go to. I love others because God first loved me and I want them to know that.
I left out the unity line I ask myself. Will it matter in the rapture?
As someone who has spent a lot of time in many different denominational churches, I have grown to hate labels and the way we rely on them to more easily pass judgment on people. Though I have resorted to using labels to give people some idea of where I stand (conservative Pentecostal. A clue: they don’t exist) it bugs me to no end that so many hate on each other because of doctrinal differences. I have friends from one end of the theological spectrum to the other; from Super reformed to attending a Bethel school, and honestly I benefit from them all! What a blessing people miss out on by dissociating or judging those who hold different doctrines to them. Unity is when we can appreciate the diversity as reflections of our extraordinary multifaceted God.
Hi John
I enjoyed this. It’s funny, in our work, we would say we are not a denomination, but merely and association. Our belief about the independence of the local church is the background for that, as denomination implies some sort of central authority other than Jesus.
Many in our word take exclusion to the extreme of almost denying other works are “true churches.” Sigh. We have some who are considered what they call “Baptist Briders.” Ugh.
On the other hand, it’s not all bad, as it’s certainly easier to fellowship regularly with folks who we are in agreement with. From that standpoint, denominations are necessarily bad.
When it’s extreme, its’ very wrong.
Good stuff John.
John, You are soooo right that God does hate factions in the Church! He desires us to be in full Unity in spirit and in truth! To cling to a name simply because my father was _ and my grandfather was _ is folly. That being said, beware ecumenism to the extent that God’s truth is watered down and compromised in order to please the masses. Eph 4, as well as other numerous passages, speak to unity and that it is found in doctrine. In the right teaching of God’s Word. Other passages declare that compromising on doctrine, to agree to disagree, is what causes faction. We should be devestated when a brother disagrees with us, because either we ourselves are teaching and believing falsely, or they are….which should frighten us and cause us to seek resolution. We are called, when in disagreement, to come together with the Word and search it together; asking the Spirit to show us the Truth, until we have found God’s Truth and are joined in Unity oncemore. May we always strive for this, not creating false peace which leads to heresy and falling away. Prime example of compromise to please all: the ELCA. I hope we are in agreement on this.
Thanks for this!
To quote Matthew Cross (who got the quote from somewhere else, I think): “In essentials-unity, in non-essentials- liberty, and in all things-charity.”
Some times it gets hairy sorting out which things are essential. But it looks like all of us in this thread have done a pretty good job being “united”–without necessarily being “uniform.”
I believe the origin of the unity in essentials, etc. is from the writings of Augustine. When I am home and not typing on a little screen (to quote John, if I may), I shall verify this.
Dave
Titus 1:9 (ESV) – He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
While discussing unity, I always think about a couple things: First, is the phrase “In essentials-unity, in non-essentials- liberty, and in all things-charity.”, and secondly I acknowledge the difference between unity and uniformity. I would expand on such things, but I think these two articles did it well already.
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/essentials-unity-non-essentials-liberty-all-things/
https://redeeminggod.com/unity-vs-uniformity-in-the-church/
Now, I will admit that I am unfamiliar with the history about how each denomination came to be- but I am familiar with church conflicts/splits/ church plants within the “movement” in which I am a part of. On occasion, I do think we have made some of the non-essentials of our faith to be “essential” in our minds. Therefore, disagreements within the church seem significant to us, when-in reality- aren’t significant at all.
But, I do believe that God can use differences among churches for the good of His kingdom. An example of this is a debate about the genre/time period of music that churches play. Some younger people may be attracted to a certain church that plays modern music, while an older person may enjoy the hymns. A different church may attract a different group of people by the style of music. You can argue that if a church split because of the style of music, that the church was focusing on a non-essential (the style) but wasn’t focusing on an essential (worshiping God). However, God can use the diversity in the style of music to attract His diverse creation into His kingdom.
I think it parallels with different doctrinal differences within different denominations. Some people may be more attracted to a certain sect of Christianity than another. To paraphrase David Platt, when we, as finite beings, try to discuss an infinite God, there are going to be holes in our theology- the problem is that we are not certain which ones they are. Some people may find a certain doctrine more sound than another. However, God can use our diverse beliefs for the good of His kingdom.
I do love posts like these as well, they make me think. Although I’ve had conversations like this with my dad before, I’ll still be thinking about this for a while.
The difference between unity and uniformity.
Yes.
That’s exactly the difference many people can’t wrap their minds around. And it’s exactly why I wouldn’t feel very welcome and included in a supposedly welcoming and inclusive church…
Would I still consider those Christians family, even while complaining about how “tolerance” is a stupid thing to build a church around?
Yes. Begrudgingly. 🙂
Matthew,
Yay! A Ligonier link! I am an R.C. Sproul fan, myself, and he has some great quality folks that write for his ministry’s site.
One of the cries of the Reformation was “semper reformanda”, always reforming, meaning that we should always be looking at what we do as a church and conforming it back to Scripture when it strays. That should ideally be done from within a church, but if things stray too far (with the essentials), then it would be time for most folks to just move on to a more Biblically-centered church.
Of course… there can (and will) also be debate over what constitutes an “essential”, but salvation by grace through faith in what Christ did on the Cross must be a non-negotiable for a church to be a true Biblical church. I will not say that all other things fall as “lesser”, but if a church does not hold fast to the central truth of genuine salvation, then there is no need to try to reform it; it is not even in the umbrella of a real church, so says the Scripture. (ooh… I got to use a semicolon. Which always sounds like a intestinal disorder to me).
Iron can sharpen iron, if used correctly. Otherwise, both blades are dulled.
Dave
Ephesians 4:11-16 (ESV) – And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
Ha, in all honesty, I just read the article without paying attention to who posted it. I first heard the phrase from Pastor Chuck Swindoll on Moody Radio-which is a great resource to hear God’s Word ( where is also where I heard the David Platt quote that I paraphrased.) I just did a simple Google-search to see if somebody articulated the topic well so I wouldn’t have to-haha.
Oh! This is where the topic comes in to play; Although there are quite a few significant areas in which the speakers on Moody ( from Moody Bible Institute) and myself disagree- based on my upbringing in a different denomination, I can still listen to them and learn biblical truths.
I do feel, however, that the theological differences do not seem to matter much among my generation.
This past January, I attended Passion Conference. I believe that there were approximately 14,000 college students there-all from different denominations, states, and countries- all for one purpose- to draw closer to God in fellowship with one another. I still believe that that is the closest picture of Heaven that I can imagine. I couldn’t tell you what denomination the Louie Giglio, John Piper, Ravi Zacharius, Levi Lusko, or Christine Caine fall under- but in the whole realm of things, does it matter?
Also, we can extend this discussion to apply to the extra-biblical conflicts that are argued about in some congregations like:
What color should we paint the church?
In meetings, should we gather in a circle or in rows?
Should we turn the fan on in the sanctuary?
What volume should the drums be?
What type of sound equipment should we get?
I can go on, but I’ll stop there.
In the whole realm of things, these are non-essential items-but we can treat them as if they are.
Sometimes pastors can be overwhelmed with an elder board who focuses on the non-essentials than doing something significant-like spreading the Gospel.
I’ll stop there before I get myself in hot-water haha.
As always, I enjoy your comments, Dave.
If you are interested in reading the thoughts of someone who is directly involved in creating disunity, Pastor Mike posted a link to his blog for your convenience.
If he shows back up – we may need to contact Chris Hansen.
~CQW
John,
Makes me think of a joke I heard a long time ago…
A Scottish Presbyterian is rescued after many years on a desert island. As he stands on the deck of the rescuing vessel, the captain says to him, “I thought you were stranded alone. How come I can see three huts on the beach?”
– “Well,” replies the castaway, “that one there is my house and that one there is where I go to church.”
– “And the third one?” asks the skipper.
– “Oh, that’s my old church.”
Denominations can be rather divisive, I agree. But one of the advantages to the label is helping to decide on a church when you move to a new area. When I moved to Colorado Springs some years ago (a short-lived move… I moved back here only three months after), I looked for a church. In my first venture, I nearly got sucked into a cult. Thank God for giving me discernment! Then I got smart and realized that I would have a much better time finding solid Biblical preaching if I checked out a Baptist church. I found one not three blocks from my apartment. And the preaching was solid. And by God’s eternal providence, I was pleasantly surprised to find that a military family I had known years before (from my old church in Hawaii) were members of this tiny little church. I still shake my head in how cool it is when God does cool stuff for us, just because.
Denominations are abominations if they claim to be the only source of light in the universe. If the weekly preaching is little more than “How Great We Are” (Rather than “How Great Thou Art”) and “How Bad They Are”, then the sheep are not being fed and are likely being told lies.
I left a Baptist church here years ago (for reasons I won’t dredge up unless they become pertinent). The pastor there would actually call another local church “liberal”, knowing the people would believe him. His basis for them being liberal was that they were nondenominational and not Baptist. Saddest part was that this pastor was renting the building he was meeting in from that so-called liberal church for a pittance. That church had outgrown the building, and was saving up for remodeling for several years and kindly let another church use the facility. I had been a member of that other church, and returned to it when I left that Baptist church. Why did I leave the nondenominational church? Well… I had left for the army, and my family changed churches while I was gone. I chose to fellowship with my family.
When I left that Baptist church (which no longer exists, so I feel okay mentioning them, as anonymously as I can), the pastor told me over the phone that Satan was going to destroy me and my ministry for leaving his church.
I now live in a different part of the island, and attend totally different church, again a Baptist one. But that is less for the denomination than for the fact that I have a good friend who is the associate pastor, and that they have solid preaching.
Now when it comes to favorite doctrines… I do not let that deter me from choosing a church. I have already “outed” myself as a Calvinist. But not a single church that I have been in fellowship with holds fully the Calvinist views I do. And it has never been a point of contention. Discussion and mutual understanding have occurred, but we have never let it become a point of division.
Does that make me a super spiritual awesome Christian? Nope. I have plenty of areas in my life I am still working on. But growing up in Jersey I saw what denominational divides are capable of doing, and I don’t want to play that game. I have seen churches split over “King James Only” and heard of others that split over church budgets. I am sure the Lord is never pleased when churches divide over non-essential matters.
Besides, here in Hawaii churches get along better because we always bump into each other at baptisms at the beach. We sometimes play impromptu volleyball against each other. And sometimes envy thy brother’s beach potluck.
Just a few rambling thoughts.
Dave
Luke 9:46-48 (ESV) – An argument arose among them as to which of them was the greatest. But Jesus, knowing the reasoning of their hearts, took a child and put him by his side and said to them, “Whoever receives this child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me. For he who is least among you all is the one who is great.”
P.S. – I like these posts better than the heathen-o-centric ones. 🙂
Thanks for the thoughts, Dave!
And, P.S. You’re not the only one who prefers the non-heathen-o-centric posts! 🙂
Part of the issue that annoys me is the labels are meaningless. You can’t tell what’s being preached in a Baptist or a Nazarene church just by the name. You need a conversation.
As you said, disagreement rises up but it shouldn’t prevent fellowship. Pride is usually the reason for church denominations. It’s not Biblical insight.
John, you said, “Part of the issue that annoys me is the labels are meaningless. You can’t tell what’s being preached in a Baptist or a Nazarene church just by the name.” Yet that’s not entirely true. Nazarene’s teach you can lose your salvation, as if it’s up to you anyhow. Baptist’s believe in immersion and baptism by confession and are generally dispensational premillennial. PCUSA doesn’t believe in the Bible, or Jesus as God anymore; while most other Presbyterian denominations you can generally know where they stand based on their denominational title, that they baptize covenant children and their form of government. Pentecostal and other charismatic denominations teach you only have half of the Holy Spirit at salvation until you speak in tongues and evidence the rest of the outpouring of the Spirit. Lutherans believe that baptizing infants actually saves them. Catholics don’t believe in justification by faith alone.
There may be true believers in each of those denominations but there would be absolute disunity if they tried to worship together on a regular basis because the bottom line is that they aren’t all correct in their theology. Not to mention that many would follow the normative principle and the more reformed follow the regulative principle in worship so a Sunday morning looks quite different between one denomination and the other.
I didn’t sense any resolution in your post and kept finding myself asking, what’s your point? I think Matthew Cross summed it up well with the direction he was going. I’m not arguing against fellowship outside of churches but denominational titles actually speak volumes in knowing someone’s initial theological leanings or the church’s teaching. I find them valuable.
Hey Scott – While it’s true that denominational labels can tell you something about the doctrines of a particular group, most people (myself included) don’t know very much about what those labels actually mean. Even the word “Christian” means different things depending on who is saying it. We’ve had a lot of doctrines ascribed to us on this very blog.
It’s dialogues (like the one we’re having right now) that helps to bring unity. I agree with you that some theological differences make it impossible to form a unified congregation. My point is that we shouldn’t make EVERY theological difference so important. We shouldn’t need to break up into different congregations because of trivial preferences.
Thanks for commenting!
Uh-oh. Subject/verb agreement, Dad. Lynda is going to have your head! 🙂
(“dialogues…helps”)
Aaargh! I’m typing on this tiny screen into a tiny box! I can’t even see a whole sentence at one time. Give me a break!
Grammarliness is next to Godliness.
Also: answer your phone! I missed you call and have been trying to call you back.
Phone-Availability is next to Godliness.