Dear John,
[that sounds so terminal. Is it? Things are rarely what they seem…]
You suggest I have no soul. But that can’t be right, because it is troubled.
That I have no conscience. But it is stirred. So again, that horrifying buzzer sound.
What, you ask, is keeping me up nights? [Or maybe you don’t ask, but I’ll use it as a literary device. Pretend you care.]
Out of every 5 pregnancies in Canada, 1 is terminated through abortion.
That’s insane.
That’s a lot of disappointed responses to two pink lines.
That’s a lot of reflexive invocations of the Almighty, questioning basic biology.
That’s a lot of condoms pinned to the bulletin board [google it].
And yet, the record in Canada is better than that in the States. Not that we’re bragging, because it’s still insane.
The question is, what is to be done?
Many in the Christian community advocate for criminalization. That is a fool’s errand, if for no other reason than SCOTUS correctly inferring a non-religious state’s interest [and as much as it might pain you to hear those words, in a pluralistic society that advances freedom of religion, it can and will only ever be a non-religious state—but don’t take my word for it. You are welcome to pay for a constitutional lawyer’s opinion] in human life begins at viability. Rail as you wish, that will not change as long as the United States of America follows its constitution. The state has no interest in non-viable human life, because said life can never become a citizen of the state. [“But,” you say, “if that life were allowed to continue until viability…” If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. It’s a circular argument, because the state has no interest until viability. Since there is no personhood of interest to the state, the only person involved is the mother, and she has right over her body]. It’s not a moral issue, it’s the constitution, baby.
Not to mention that criminalization will not, in and of itself, lower abortion rates. [Sedgh G et al., Induced abortion worldwide in 2008: levels and trends, Lancet, 2012]. So even if one manages to change the nature of the state [who’s religious view to follow—your’s, or the catholic’s, or mine—and how to decide between them? And on this point, one should be ever so careful what one wishes for—not even Calvin’s Geneva worked well enough to have staying power; alternatively, theocracies go the way of Iran], one is not guaranteed to achieve the goals of a minimization of the loss of life.
There is also the self-evident truth that an increase in illegal abortions puts the mothers’ lives at risk, and adult deaths will increase. [World Health Organization (WHO), Unsafe Abortion: Global and Regional Estimates of the Incidence of Unsafe Abortion and Associated Mortality in 2008, sixth ed., Geneva: WHO, 2011]. One cannot countenance that with a shrug and still claim to be pro life.
But let’s just say, for argument’s sake, that there was a way to eliminate abortions and that every pregnancy would be carried to term. In Canada, there are 4500 adoptions per year. There are 30,000 children currently awaiting adoption (many of whom have been abused and neglected in their birth homes). In business terms, we have an 8 year supply on hand. Now add the 95,000 children rescued from abortion this year alone. And another 95,000 next year. And the year after.
Practically, the system couldn’t handle it. Canadians cannot shoulder the burden of the unwanted pregnancies should they all be carried to term. Even if most who would have aborted ended up keeping their children, one cannot reasonably suggest that the majority would suddenly become delighted to have a child they didn’t want, and that all will turn out well.
I’m not sure how it is in America [he says facetiously]. Perhaps in America, the churches, what with their parishioner’s generous giving of less than 2% of income, would be able to provide funding for all the prospective births in that country.
J’accuse. It seems irresponsible to have an agenda without a solution. And if there is a solution, why not enact it before legislation, as in now. Bring the abortion rates down so there is no reason for this conversation. Mr. Branyan, tear down this wall!
It is no answer to say of those not wishing to be pregnant, “They should have thought about the implications of rearing children before having sex.” Or, “they shouldn’t have had sex.” Both are correct. And of complete inconsequence. You cannot put the genie back in the bottle, or become unpregnant. Well, you can, but here we go again.
The best solution at present is to eliminate unwanted pregnancies before they happen. The countries that do the best job of that offer sex education, free birth control options, generous paid maternity (and in some cases, paternity) leave for up to a year, and child care options, typically paid for (at least in part) by the state, with business contributing to the maternity leave.Some of these are available in the United States, but I notice with some bewilderment, that many of these solutions are opposed by Christians claiming to be pro life. I offer up Hobby Lobby as an example. I can’t tell whether their stance is uninformed, hypocritical, or cynical beyond even my level.
And so we come to the crux of why this conversation happened in the first place. Planned Parenthood offers some of the services that will reduce abortions. [I also note that Planned Parenthood counsels abortions, and I understand that Christians will find that objectionable]. What I accuse the folks who published the [now discredited] edited “sting” video of (as well as those who parroted the false accusations) was demonizing Planned Parenthood [not abortion, as you incorrectly inferred], which, and I stand by this, I believe to be a mistake for those who want to eliminate abortions. If Planned Parenthood is defunded, who will step into the gap of providing education about birth control, as well as the contraceptive means thereof [not at this point referring to abortion]? Will it not be an agency entirely like
Planned Parenthood? And can it not be surmised there would be a rise in unplanned pregnancies in the interim? Having accomplished what, exactly? The king is dead, long live the king.
[Another of the problems with Christians demonizing Planned Parenthood is that it makes it nigh untenable to be a Christian working for them. Why would a Christian want to work for Planned Parenthood, you ask? Why, that’s where the broken come when they are at their wits end about their pregnant situation. Who better to counsel them at that point than someone who can extend grace and mercy]?
The video is based on deception. Now you say you’ve never seen anyone edited into a video. Fair enough, but that’s not what I was talking about. I was talking about being taken out of context. Surely you’ve seen that. In case not, I submit the following:
You suggested that if the video was incorrect, Planned Parenthood would sue. But one can’t sue for being taken out of context, otherwise my lawyers would be calling you. They might be calling you anyway, but only because you’ve got some outstanding DVD’s they’d like to add to their collection. They’re fans. What can I say?
I labeled Paul and Cruz unsuitable presidential material because of their immediate call to defund Planned Parenthood based on the publication of said video. A “shoot first ask later” mentality is not appropriate for someone with access to THE button, which I’m sure still exists. Mostly because if the idiots that fire back miss, it’s going to land in my backyard. So excuse me if I’d like someone rational at the helm. Several other GOP candidates also responded to the video, but they called for investigation. Which I believe is fair.
Also, I labeled Paul and Cruz unsuitable because I knew it would get someone’s goat. It’s like shooting lions on a wildlife reserve, only I don’t have to go to Africa. Looks like your curry will be meatless tonight.
And I suggested more media savvy for my Christian connections who jump on this stuff like it’s a bouncy castle at a toddler’s birthday. Mostly because it’s a firm belief of mine that if you need deceit to tell your story, you’re backing a loser, a belief I believe I share with the general public, but which some of my brethren don’t seem quick enough to grasp.
So yes, I see it as a complex situation. Just because a dog doesn’t see colour, doesn’t mean light comes in only one wavelength. Just because you see it in black and white doesn’t mean the shades of gray aren’t there. The fault would lie in your visual acuity.
I am pro life, and anti-criminalization. I believe there must be a better way, but doubt there is a perfect way. [History, if not you, would appear to be on my side]. Is that stupid [or, as you suggested, am I stupid]? I guess that would be for the reader to decide. If you, the reader, don’t understand the references, look them up before you respond. If you don’t understand the arguments, seek counsel before you respond, or respond in humility. If you don’t have a better plan, don’t bother trashing mine. And if you can’t say something nice, say it about John instead. Or post on TMZ.
If you’re not contributing to the solution (and waving gross pictures at women in distress can only be considered contributing in a Westboro Baptist sort of way), you’re part of the problem.
Your brother in Christ (too late to be aborted)
Chris Gursche (aka [name withheld])
PS — there’s no need for you to be terrified if you’re wearing protection. For the eyes, that is.
———————–
I’m eager to hear responses to Mr. Gurshe in the comment section.
You may also, as was suggested, post to TMZ but I’ll probably not be reading it.
My official response will be posted in a couple of days…
23 Responses
I want to thank Chris for his courage in expressing what is bound to be an unpopular opinion in a space like this. It isn’t easy to voluntarily place your head in the stocks, and I notice most of you followed your impulse to throw something at him instead of bringing him water.
Well then, Mikey, Why don’t you give him water? I’m interested in what it will be.
LOL – I gave him a drink already, and I didn’t volunteer for the tomatoes, but I’ll add something simple if you really are interested. Thanks for asking.
I’m not a statistician or deeply into the relevant research. I’m a working medical asst. and imaging tech. What I have to add is experiential, and you might consider it anecdotal, therefore easy to impugn. I don’t currently work where abortions are provided, but I have in hospitals and clinics previously, as well as having social service experience prior to my health care credentials.
People (not just Christians) talk a good game when it comes to adoption, but if the child in question isn’t white, an infant, and “perfect” (no disabilities or behavior problems), most aren’t willing to commit. It’s great that there are angelic exceptions, but there aren’t enough of them to keep up with the number of kids who must instead grow up in foster care.
I’ve stopped counting the number of so-called educated patients who are woefully ignorant of “where babies come from”, and who know next to nothing about STD risks. Many have told me their entire sex ed. was 3 days in high school. I think that’s tragic. The sex drive is biological. If we don’t teach people the facts, beginning in the early grades as they do in most industrialized countries, we will continue to have the highest teen and unintended pregnancy rate of all “first world” nations, and STD rates equally exceptional. On the upside, our unintended pregnancy rates have dropped, as have abortions since the 80s, but other countries are still way ahead of us.
You can’t educate or religiously program people out of wanting to have sex, but you CAN manage the results of sex. All forms of contraception, including the expensive ones, should be easy to get and free of charge. No pregnancy=no need for abortion.
Most who seek abortions are poor and minority women. If you want to stop abortion… FIX POVERTY. Until then, it’s going to have to be an available choice.
I did do a side-by-side comparison between the edited and unedited versions of one of the CMP videos, where the fake biotech questioners try to entrap the doctor into naming specific prices for parts. It took HOURS to watch, and they cut out all the doctor’s assurances that PP assesses cost solely for tissue prep and transport, that they aren’t allowed to urge the women to donate, and that “selling” tissue is illegal. I’m completely convinced the CMP is lying, or “swiftboating” if you prefer, to advance a political agenda. They have no interest in medical progress. And don’t give me “Abby Johnson”. She came to her “conversion” four days after being given a negative job review at her clinic, and said she participated in an abortion (with no medical training) on a day none were performed. Investigative reporters debunked her lies years ago.
I shall now leave it to Chris to keep ducking… Blessings to all!
Granted, this if from 2008. But it’s from a “non-religious” source, so that’s a plus, right?
As usual–the overgrown government with it’s red tape and ineffeciency is 90% of the adoption problem.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/07/AR2008110702807.html
I’ll take that.
here are 3 (of the many) flaws – with his subtle swipe at the Church’s lack of giving, There have been many studies to suggest that the number one indicator of how generous someone will be in their giving is their personal religious faith. Here is a quote from a recent Hoover Institute study: “The differences in charity between secular and religious people are dramatic. Religious people are 25 percentage points more likely than secularists to donate money (91 percent to 66 percent) and 23 points more likely to volunteer time (67 percent to 44 percent). And, consistent with the findings of other writers, these data show that practicing a religion is more important than the actual religion itself in predicting charitable behavior. For example, among those who attend worship services regularly, 92 percent of Protestants give charitably, compared with 91 percent of Catholics, 91 percent of Jews, and 89 percent from other religions.” Second, at least here in the states – there are 30-40 couples waiting to adopt a baby for every baby that is born. that equals 4-5 million couples as opposed to the 1.2 million we abort annually. If Canada’s stats are as dismal as he says, perhaps the answer is not more abortion, but more education for his country of the blessing of adoption. And, if Canadians are unwilling to take care of their children in this manner, then adopt them out to the U.S. Couples are waiting! And finally, I wish the whole “it was cleverly edited” argument was more clever. But it is absurd. One can go to youtube and watch all of almost three hours of the footage from the first video released to see for themselves everything in the context in which it was filmed. Perhaps the guest blogger only bothered to watch the highlight reels circulating in the news which by the way, is still in context. Just because PP execs say it is discredited, and just because the Obama admin appears to go along with that assertion – doesn’t mean it is. Nothing has been discredited here. But hey, they all have to try and protect their financial interests I suppose. I’m going to quote myself here from another response I gave to someone this morning on Facebook, not because I am impressed with myself, but because I don’t feel like typing anymore – “Calling someone a hater is an intellectually lazy argument designed to silence or discredit someone who holds a different viewpoint. I am reminded of a story from the book Bonhoeffer by Eric Metaxes (I believe this is where I read it) in which a train carrying Jews on the way to a Nazi death camp would thunder by a church in the countryside every Sunday morning. Everyone in the Church knew where that train was going, but in order to avoid thinking about it, they would be instructed by the pastor to sing their hymns louder. They did. I refuse to remain silent on abortion because these lives have no voice. They cannot defend themselves. It is up to others to do if for them. If in my doing so gets me accused of “hate” then I am willing to have that label despite the false accusation. The idea that PP does so much other good is also a deflection. Hitler built schools and repaired roads and provided nice new uniforms for the troops. Nobody would dare utter that – “but he did good in the world” or “but he didn’t just kill Jews, he did a lot of other stuff too”. That would not only be absurd, but it would be insane. They are the number one abortion provider in the country which equals millions of lives lost.”
Dan Kulp, where do you get your adoption figures from? childwelfare.gov places the 2007 & 2008 US adoption numbers at ~136,000 per year, which is a high water mark. Those are adoptions from all sources, including international, and including children from blended families adopted by their step parents. That’s a far cry from your 4-5 million. If you don’t understand the depth of the problem, how will you find a solution? Do you truly believe adding 1.2 million to the available pool is going to increase the US adoption rate by 1000 percent?
And, for what it’s worth, I refuse to remain silent on abortion because these lives have no voice. They cannot defend themselves. It is up to others to do if for them. If in my doing so gets me accused of “hate” then I am willing to have that label despite the false accusation. The current plan isn’t getting it done, and won’t get it done. If that’s your only strategy, you’re fooling yourself, and I doubt that God is impressed.
So the current plan isn’t getting it done and won’t get it done, right? Ok, so how about something different? Like defunding the number one abortion provider in the country? This hasn’t even been tried. They have been sucking a half a billion dollars off the public teet for years. Oh, I know, that would be reactionary. Was it reactionary when the Obama administration claimed the videos were cleverly edited to show what they wanted them to show? I mean, they too could have taken some time to look at the facts, right? And while we’re at it, I would love to know what inside knowledge you possess to say that these videos have been discredited. Also, what are the false accusations? Sounds quite reactionary to me to lap up the talking points given by PP without first examining their veracity.
Dan Kulp, https://youtu.be/H4UjIM9B9KQ if you want to look at it. They’re talking about procuring fetal tissue for medical research on a cost recovery basis, which is allowed under US law http://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/policy/publiclaw103-43.htm.html. I’m not saying you have to like it, and I’m not defending US law, but the 8 minute video posted at center for medical progress.org which purports to show laws being broken shows no such thing. So that’s deceitful.
Regarding the discreditation, I’m quoting the NY Times article. And having watched the unedited video, I agree with the NYT assessment. You are welcome to form your own opinion.
It doesn’t matter to me what happens to Planned Parenthood. John says I’m pro Planned Parenthood. I’ve never said that of myself. My original point, which is still my point, is using deceit to try to demonize the organization is a bad idea, and not something that I feel Christians should rally behind. If the American people want Planned Parenthood defunded, that is their choice and their right. I don’t think its going to make a whit of difference to abortion rates. If you want to prevent abortions, why waste time and energy on fruitless efforts.
By the way, this information was all on line before I gave my opinion, so I was able to examine the “veracity.” I don’t know what PP’s talking points are, so I wouldn’t be able to lap them up.
“I think for affiliates, at the end of the day, they’re a nonprofit, they just don’t want to — they want to break even. And if they can do a little better than break even, and do so in a way that seems reasonable, they’re happy to do that,” –Deb Nucatola, Planned Parenthood.
What does “a little better than break even” mean, Chris?
Also, it is NOT legal for American doctors to change their procedures, with the organ harvesting in mind. Killing the fetus more slowly and more inhumanely, because you have an order to fill and you’re trying to salvage a particular body part, is AGAINST THE LAW.
Amanda, the information is in the long form video if you care to look.
If doctors have broken the law, they should be prosecuted.
Planned Parenthood’s services (sans abortion) are already offered at Crisis Pregnancy Centers. Planned Parenthood should simply have to get its money the old fashioned way, not from the pockets of individuals who are morally opposed to abortion.
But I do agree with the statement that we should not complain of the problem without offering a solution. I have long believed that the church has failed in this area. Churches need to be more active in supporting those mothers who wish to keep their children. And for those who don’t…if even a few families in each church in America was willing to adopt, the solution would be found. There should be no unwanted children in a nation with a thriving Christian Church. And before anyone complains, yes I have taken my own advice.
I am really sad that this response was written by a believer. So the answer to “we don’t have enough people to adopt” is kill the babies?? Let’s follow that to it’s logical conclusion…the world has too many people, so let’s start to provide a way out for the old ones, or the sick, or the disabled. They are not/can no longer be productive citizens, anyway. And if we only save that which is viable, we should be able murder up until about 5 or 6 because those kids certainly can’t live by themselves or on their own without help!! There are actually some “scientist” who are trying to get a law passed for “after birth abortion”. i.e. – murder
No, you cannot put the genie in the bottle and become unpregnant, but you can teach responsibility. All actions have consequences. We are now seeing the consequences of years of having an incorrect view of marriage and sex. And now to preach that because a baby is inconvenient for you, it’s OK to kill him? Horrific. This is promotion of selfishness at its best.
Just so your friend knows, there is NO service that PP provides that is not provided by a community health clinic (except abortion). Also, if they were so transparent, why not invite the media in to prove the undercover videos wrong? Why not walk them around? There is no transparency whatsoever in PP. PLease have your friend read “Unplanned” by Abby Johnson, former PP director. Have him listen to the stories from the 160 former workers that Abby has helped to leave that hellish company. Hear how they have her under watch because they are so fearful of what she knows about them. Yes, sounds like a wonderful organization!!!
I would encourage your friend to go back and read the Scriptures about humans being made in the image of God. Where does it say that we can arbitrairly destroy that life? I see protect the orphans and widows (i take this literally as well as figuratively – the orphans and widows were the least and most helpless in society at that time, as the unborn is now).
Just so your friend knows, those of us who are passionately pro-life do put our money where our mouth is. We support a home for pregnant and parenting teens. We have TONS of friends who foster and/or adopt, and we support them. Whatever we can do to support life, we do it. But I digress.
Dear friend of John, I am so sad for you, and hope that God will help you see the value of all life, unborn or not. The argument that “the sytem cannot handle them” is irrelevant. We don’t kill because a life is inconveient to you.
I saw something beautiful yesterday, “Abortion is the evil reverse image of the gospel. Instead of ‘I die for you’, it says ‘You die for me’.
You write “So the answer to “we don’t have enough people to adopt” is kill the babies?”
I never said that, and never advocated for it. I point out the disparity between adoptions and abortions to demonstrate to those who are calling for criminalization that they have an incomplete solution.
But if you are for criminalization, ask yourself this—How can the state, which now clearly has a vested interest in abortion (if I can put these numbers together, surely any semi-competent bureaucrat can do the same) pass legislation to stop it?
If you really want to stop abortions, you need a different plan.
John,
Unfortunately we are “strangers in a strange land” and there will be those who claim man’s law stands supreme over God’s law. So let’s look at this piece by piece.
Claiming a video is “now discredited” does not discredit the video. The only people claiming it’s discredited are the ones committing the crime. And yes what they were talking about doing is considered a crime in this country. Call it “Fetal tissue” all day long, but when they are talking about harvesting a liver it isn’t a pigs liver they’re referring to.
My solution to “unwanted pregnancy’? Hospitality. The church is called (and by the church I mean the people not the institution) to care for the poor etc. We do this in a most impactful way when we open our HOUSE to them. Yes they might come in and steal or worse but we are called by Christ to care for the poor or those who make poor choices in this case.
Jay, it is my understanding that using tissues from aborted fetuses for medical research is legal in the US, and may be charged for on a cost recovery basis. Not saying you have to be happy about it, but that’s the law.
http://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/policy/publiclaw103-43.htm.html
The false assertion in the middle of this wide ranging argument is that if federal funding is denied to planned parenthood, it will cease to provide services, and some other organization with the same mission will have to rise up to take that place. The truth is that planned parenthood would survive quite nicely, unfortunately, on its fee for service, and on the misguided donations of the United Way, Susan G Komen, etc.
Removing that, the balance of the treatise devolves into a tiresome, amoral “everybody does it” argument, doesn’t it? If everyone else jumped off a cliff, does that mean the federal government must build cliffs everywhere?
Brian, you may be right about Planned Parenthood. Which makes this whole underground video even more perplexing. Why waste the time and resources?
Regarding the tiresome amoral bit, I don’t see how you got that out if the article, unless you didn’t really read it. What do you think I’m advocating?
Oh, I read it. When I distill the hyperbole and insults, I think you’re saying that the large number of abortions happening now indicates an irrefusable demand for abortions that must be supplied by federal subsidy. It plainly does not. Will things change if the government does not subsidize abortion via planned parenthood? Perhaps. Only perhaps.
I ignored your references to Republican politicians – you said you just mentioned them to be provocative. That’s good enough for me.
What if the current number of abortions is a consequence of a social more asserting that sex is a consequenceless act and the life that results is an easily avoided inconvenience? See, everyone does it, and the government must supply a remedy to this problem. That’s amoral. And tiresome. If you want to say human value doesn’t matter, and killing babies is a practical necessity because there are too many unintended pregnancies, that argument is exactly “everyone is doing it”.
Pragmatism never was and never will be an excuse for violating the law of God. All the reasons in the world don’t add up to anything when compared to the fact that each murdered baby is made in the image of God (Gen 1:26) and is knit together by God in the womb of the mother (Psalm 139:14).
As to the claims of a theocratic state being untenable… Historical revisionism is popular today, but it doesn’t change the fact that this country was founded by using the Christian moral beliefs of those who fled Europe and settled here in the first place. Ignorance of this fact, or revisionists who want to say it isn’t true, doesn’t change what actually took place.
This article is interesting, if for no other reason than to demonstrate how lost in human interests we can be when we forget, or deny, that God is the ultimate authority of heaven and earth, and no scheme of man can alter what God has ordained to be.
Well said!