Q: What’s the difference between the Holy Spirit and PlanningCenterOnline.com?
A: Church happens without the Holy Spirit.
Without the Spirit, songs will be sung.
Sermons will be preached.
Coffee will be served.
When Planning Center crashes, liturgy goes to hell in a handbasket.
The Spirit won’t tell you how long it takes to sing “Good Good Father”.
The Spirit won’t tell you who’s on the keyboard this week.
The Spirit won’t tell you when it’s okay for the congregation to sit down.
Sunday morning needs structure.
Visitors are watching!
When the countdown clock reaches 0:00 and the music doesn’t start…
…it reflects badly on Jesus.
There’s no excuse for that!
We’re not amateurs.
We’re prime time fishers of men, baby!
Nobody’s getting saved until we offer an invitation.
And when is the invitation?
Check the Planning Center printout.
69 Responses
And apologies to all for my horrendous spelling today. My phone is in revolt.
@ Tim and Mooseman. When ya”l meet for that coffee, let me know. I personally and the staunchest of the assemble of the local church guys on the planet, but yeah….we could readjust our priority sometimes.
I absolutely love how God restores order to our chaos. I really do believe He is a God of order, and not of confusion and chaos. However, I remember going to this one church and the power went out…..so worship was canceled.
That’s that, no one can sing without the words on an over head projector, nobody knows how to actually use the bibles in the pew before them, and the pastor had no idea how to time the service perfectly without an electronic planner to cue him in! I could not believe it, I was like, you’re kidding right? Christians have been meeting in the basements of bombed out buildings since the dawn of time and yet we can’t even figure out how to have church when the lights go out?
So the church I go to now, about ten minutes after I first walked in, the lights went out. It was a test, I tell ya! And church went right on going, candlelight service in fact. Sometimes people ask why I’m still there and I’m like, well the power went out one day and I just never left…..
Great story and illustration!
I wonder what the Apostle Paul would think of this as orderly worship? I suppose if has a reminder for the women to be silent he might be ok with it.
Hey Jeff, I think you’re quoting the passage that the modern service has been based on…..1Cor.14 “a hymn, a lesson, a revelation” and verse 40 is the planning center verse! ” Decently and IN ORDER” 😀
At the Bible Study Group I attend, we have just been talking about traditions and rituals that have been adapted from pagan religions and to what degree they are helpful or hindering to our following Christ.
We’re perhaps a bit more radical, but several of us took the position that most of the traditions involved with Churches tend to be hindering, rather than encouraging.
I tend to think that if a church is more honest about Sunday events being more of a show rather than being billed as a more sacred time of the week, it would be better to encourage the Body of Christ to think outside of their church when it comes to following Christ.
Is that Frank Viola’s book you’re referencing by chance?!?!?!
While not the focus of our discussion, several people have brought up that book in reference to the conversation.
It’s quite amazing just HOW MUCH of our contemporary practices are thousands of years old… and did not originate with those called Christians ^_^.
In brief: Friggin’ Constantine.
Tell me about it!
Weirdly, my family had a birthday party last Sunday and all of us were discussing that book (and the follow-up, Reimagining Church).
My dad read it a couple years ago, and recommended it to me. Now the others are diving in. Hopefully it doesn’t mess them up too much. 😉
Hopefully it does ^_^.
And I’d like to be clear to potential readers about my original post – I’m certainly not saying that God can’t use/move in churches in the way that they operate, because God can certainly use us in our imperfections. However, I don’t think that our typical church events (I can’t bring myself to call them “service”) are necessarily a good way to drive us toward Christ.
Interesting insight Moose….. I guess I see the “modern day” service as more of a chance to celebrate with fellow believers. Most of our outreach is done on other days of the week in parks or food banks or just in living our lives……Not saying I’m right (I have no say in how our particular services run) or anyone else is wrong….Sadly I can’t find the book of the Bible that tells us how to do a service…….And thankfully so to a certain degree….. Then we’d all be telling the Persecuted Church to liven up and get out of their basements and stop hiding……!
Thanks, Tim. I suppose what I find most frustrating is the idea that the formula for regular church events seem to be set in stone, with very slight variation between churches. Some combination of Announcements, Songs, Offering, and the all-important sermon. How has this become the standard? Sure, church goers often point to other ministries that the most involved 20% of the congregation participate in… but if someone only participates in the auxiliary ministries without going on Sunday, something is often thought to be amiss with their spiritual walk. Or perhaps more outspokenly “I could never do that”
Well we are instructed to “not forsake the gathering” or “neglecting to meet together” so is someone who does all of the other things but doesn’t want to “meet together” really on a good path? Heck I can convince myself that pizza is a good idea everyday (and I remain convinced) if I had no interaction with anyone else. I love it when a whole whack of people are singing together. To me that is a very small glimpse….Albeit a glimpse….Of what Heaven will be like. Quite simply after some weeks I REALLY look forward to that time.
I do agree, that you can pretty much go to any church and find the same order of events going on….But has it changed much in 200-300 years? Maybe a better question is does it need to? Have we so lost the Awe and Magesty of our God that we get “bored” with Church? I believe it can happen…..I think though that too many people today are worried about what they can GET from church rather than what they can ADD. You hear it all the time “not meeting my needs” “not relevant to me” etc. You can pretty much substitute the word “government” for “church” and get the same “excuses” or observations. There has always been one thing that no nation to date has survived…..And that is prosperity. We’ve survived wars, famines, natural disasters, extreme poverty, etc. However never prosperity. We we have no needs…..We don’t need God…Or so we think.
As a side note…….When our church went to a Saturday and two Sunday services……We started going every other Saturday. It took a while to let myself be seen outside on a Sunday and not in church………Because even the world thinks that’s where you should be Sunday morning around here! 😁
I very much appreciate your detailed comment, Tim.
I question why “the gathering” and “the assembly” seems to be exclusively the Sunday event. Where two or three are gathered wouldn’t be forsaking the Body.
I think an argument can be made that the formula does need to change. Why should Sunday be a (or at least “the primary”) source of our spiritual nourishment? Ought we be seeking spiritual nourishment in other ways? Weekly sermons were likely much more helpful in ages of illiteracy and limited information, but aren’t discussions typically much more nourishing? Sure, weekly lectures about the Bible can be helpful, but it’s a stretch to say they are necessary or even the “best”
Finally, I think we should be clear on what is meant by “church”. Do we mean specific legal corporations, the building, or the worldwide body of Christ? Because certainly, we should be looking to serve, but that doesn’t always mean serving a particular legal corporation or building, despite it building others within the Body.
Mooseman…..Wish we could just go for coffee and chat… My thumbs are wearing down to stumps!
I agree wholeheartedly and enthusiastically that the church is a body of believers…Not a corporation or building. I don’t know the magic number of said believers required to “make a church” 1Cor. Seems to indicate more than 2 or 3, and it also indicates that it is a planned coming together. At that point in history probably a few dozen, usually in a house of someone who was fairly well off – it was large enough to accommodate everyone. But hey, I’m no Bible scholar….So I could be and probably am wrong!
Coffee would be great ^_^ I’d probably grab a glorious Diet Coke myself, though.
I guess I would like to redirect back to questioning why we consider the Sunday Event as being almost exclusively the idea of “the assumbly.” We think of that as the norm in our society and excuse other cultures’s failure to meet this standard for a variety of reasons (ex. Can’t meet publicly, they don’t have the funds, they were just starting out).
There are definitely things that believers should do together – pray and sing for example. However, our traditions hold us to the typical Sunday event schedule far more than it should and often gives attendees a greater sense of spiritual accomplishment than it likely should.
OK…Coke Zero for me…
Will there be pizza involved?😀
I guess I’m confused by the question. I think we see Sunday as “the assembly” for the same reason they called it that in school. “We have some stuff we need to share with everybody, let’s get em all in the same room.” Not to say there aren’t other meetings going on throughout the week – in fact if there weren’t I’d be questioning why not?
Also not sure which culture we’re talking about “letting off the hook”.
I’d say traditionally we were able to meet on weekends because we didn’t work – that’s why we did. I’d agree this is changing and the church needs to adapt.
As to people feeling “spiritual enough” only going to church and doing nothing else throughout the week…..It’s a bit tough for us to make the call about someone else’s walk…… when I walk alone is usually
Sorry, hit the send key instead of the return key on the keyboard….. Stumps!
If we look at preaching or sermons as introductions to study, then I believe the once a week thing gives you enough time to “search the Scriptures” like the Bereans to be sure what you’re hearing is valid. That being said, in our study group that meets weekly outside of church we often say ” With all of this information I feel I could take a month off church just to apply everything I learned TODAY!” It’s true, we can get overwhelmed and sometimes even distraught over the amount of things we haven’t yet got working in our lives. Ever hear a message and think…..Dang….I made a decision about that years ago…And here I am again! I have…… I do love the exchanges in our group – they are always dynamic – much like here…..But they wouldn’t be as possible without us meeting at church. What goes on at church is what we live out and discuss each week.
To sum up…..I agree the discussions can be much more nourishing, but I do wonder what topics we’d collectively choose to discuss or challenge each other on without the service to give us a starting point. I guess the service focuses us all on one point or topic at a time so we at least know what we’re discussing.
Sorry, Tim, didn’t see your second post before I responded ^_^.
I think it’s giving the sermon too much credit to make it seem like you would have a hard time finding encouraging topics without it. Perhaps one of you would feel more free to bring up topics are even more relevant to your immediate daily life.
I’ve sat through several messages that have convicted, but I’ve sat through several more where I’ve felt nothing and boredom, because it’s been rehashed over and over in other messages. I’ve heard the “that’s on you, not the preacher” but that’s such a cop out and there’s little to think that’s the case. It is difficult to argue that listening to a relatively arbitrary sermon would be better than, say, listening to a theological podcast on a topic that is immediately meaningful to one’s life.
Sorry Mooseman….They need to move that “send ” button!
I don’t think it’s giving the sermon too much credit, but rather as a group we’ve decided that this is going to be our topic to explore…..This week. I mentioned a week or so ago that our church started the book of Romans……About a year and a half ago. No now disrespect to Paul, bit he is kind of a one trick pony once you get into his letters. Yet……We’ve always had great discussions throughout the weeks after as someone always brings a different perspective on the very same passage. Not new truth, but different applications of the same truth.
One illustration on the “that’s on you” statement….. For several years we had a family music group. We toured and played about 50-80 shows a year, mostly at churches. Many of those weren’t exactly well…Er…Um….Where I would chose to get my teaching from. Yet…. We learned a valuable lesson – the Holy Spirit is MY teacher. Someone could get up and recite “Mary had a little lamb” and I expected to get something out of it…..And I always did. God’s Word is so powerful you can read or listen to the same passage every day and get something out of it – besides a nap!
That’s fine that your group has decided that and I suspect that it adds volumes to what you get out of the sermon. I would also suspect that no matter the topic, you would likely get more out of a discussion with believers than through a lecture.
Perhaps I was a bit harsh on the “that’s on you” statement and I suppose I understand what you’re saying in terms of getting something out of everything – but as your illustration kind of points out, we should have that attitude everywhere and the sermon is not necessary part of holding that attitude and allowing the Holy Spirit to teach you.
Agreed again! It’s a tough one for me to wrap my head around…….I feel like I’ve somehow “got it all”. I love the service on Sunday (or Saturday night) it’s my mini-vacation from being indoctrinated by the world. It’s a celebration of us all together and it’s a time of reflection on just how amazing God is. I’m thankful for it and I would miss it. Our study group of 12 is another very enjoyable and at times challenging time. I would also miss it. Times spent on the streets talking to people are great, working at the shelters is great, sharing my faith with the guys at work is great…..It’s all great! But it is God in all those things that makes it great. I could do all those things without Him, and they would just be chores. With Him, I’m like one of my kids who wants to help me build something – but can’t even carry a hammer. He’s doing all the work and I’m having the time of my life “helping”……☺️
When God is in the midst of the situation, that is what makes each situation good. I more than enthusiastically agree that God works in all of those situations and that fosters your spiritual growth.
I wish more people took that perspective to heart. If they did, i would have a much harder time finding common ground with KIA’s assessment above.
Well it easier to criticize than do something about it. He appears not to go to church anywhere anymore, and offers nothing in the way of how to fix the supposed manipulation of the current church service. Anybody can do that…..oh, and his plan to have the box at the back – even more chance for manipulation – as the guy standing at the front sees who puts in and who doesn’t…..I’ve seen that one first hand. More community, more accountability are the two safeguards I look for after finding a church that actually believes the Bible that is…….
An example of a lean, mean Christian worship machine in action!
If ever there was one.
This post makes me want to cry. Mostly because you’ve written everything I’ve silently ranted to myself many times before.
Our church uses PC and when the started, the confidence monitors would have a countdown that flashed in red when you were close to your allotted time and went over.
I think the flashing red was code for the person on stage to say “challenge accepted” and see how long over the could go.
We don’t have the countdown in front of us now, but we do have 2 services and the recording of our first service goes to another campus the same morning so PC helps us keep things moving.
If you have a plan in place, when you do sense the HS moving, it helps to transition, especially if you use someone who is not comfortable with “winging it”
This really tickled me John, being amusing despite what some of your pastor friends say LOL.
Being a fundamentalist Baptist type, we of course pretty much abhor the idea of liturgy and order of worship. We would pretty much turn our noses up at them as leftovers of Roman ritualism. I personally think some ritual and tradition is comforting and provides some order, just as too much stifles. the Holy Spirit
What make me laugh is that we claim to be ritual adverse, yet we do it the same way every single week without deviation. Same words in certain places, songs sung in the same spots, first second and last verses thanks, men say the same words in prayers, every thing done by noon sharp or somebody is in trouble. We have a liturgy, we just don’t call it that LOL.
It seems to me that humans are designed to be drawn toward that ritualism. (I think that’s why God–being aware of our tendencies–actually ESTABLISHED the rituals of the Old Testament.)
I totally agree about ritualism having the adverse effect of stifling the Holy Spirit, and therefore, becoming an idol. But, I wonder if our love for predictability and schedules points to God’s order.
Why must you always contradict me?
I didn’t. I agree we’ve crossed into the area of OVER-planning (and “stifling the Holy Spirit”) in probably most churches.
…In other words, I’m contradicting your last comment. 🙂
No. You’re contradicting my suggestion that you contradicted me.
I checked planning center and neither of you are allowed to post for another 7min 32sec……Get with the program already!
I’m going to try that one on my wife! “Honey, my love for predictability and schedules means I’m just more like God”
If you don’t hear from me again……😀
Haha, send your wife over here. I’m thinking “God also likes grace and flexibility” is an acceptable response. 🙂
Hi Amanda
Well, I happen to love order. I find order and control very appealing. Funny, thought, through the intervention of the Holy Spirit I have learned to loosen up.
I agree our patterns of order in worship reflect a God who is a God of order. He invented science, after all.
I think some order in worship is really nice, as it can actually open our hearts to the moving of the spirit when we aren’t worried about who is supposed to be doing what, and how. But, we can as you said make order our god, and then the Holy Spirit is both quenched and grieved.
As long as you recognize the goofiness, you’re going to be just fine.
Well…I used to hate goofy. Rumor has it I emerged from the womb, slapped the doctor, and told him to stop acting silly. I have learned to loosen up some with the aid of the very Holy Spirit we are talking about.
This was actually a good post. Not funny at all but good. Pointing out the lack of true Divine guidance and the systematic, mechanistic manipulation of people in what passes for church these days.
No holy spirit required or attending. Just make believe start to finish.
KIA…. I think that is a bit of a simplistic view. I’ve been to both styles of church’s – the one with the box on the wall at the back, and the currently the “planned” offering time. Neither is more “faith based” than the other, they’re just different. I have reminders to pay my phone bill, property taxes, pick up groceries, etc programmed into my phone or written on a piece of paper ( my preferred method!) So does that make me less in tune with God because I have to be reminded? Nope….With the myriad of thoughts swirling around in my mind I need a lot more reminders…Especially the older I get!
While I agree that the church service can seem to have been planned to resemble a finely orchestrated performance……..This is more dependant on the congregants hearts – not the planning department. Since I am, as every believer is, the temple of the Holy Spirit, whether or not the Holy Spirit shows up depends on me….Not the planning dept. What does depend on them is to be so in tune with what’s going on to ALLOW the Spirit to work. If planning center dictates the service, and must be followed to a “T” – go somewhere else. There is a huge difference between being organized and prepared to having to live by the schedule. My wife IS the keyboard player this week ( planning center says so 😀) So I know from experience that we almost never follow the “plan” exactly……And that is one reason why we stay. If God’s plan gets replaced by our plan ( as John wittingly but also as a very astute warning points out ) then it’s time to move on……And I’m taking the Holy Spirit with me!
I do like that the offering comes AFTER the message……That’s faith brother! We always do it before the message……Just in case anybody gets offended….😉
Why take an offering at all? My old church trusted the Lord and his people enough to leave the box at the back of the meeting hall and let people give as they felt god motivating them. No big hype, no manipulation, no guilt and no need for ‘scheduled’ prompting at all.
Is that the church you left because they wounded you so deeply?
Really? Didn’t your pastor like to say “butts in seats” and have a dollar amount for what each “butt” was worth to the church?
Yes. Mike’s old church was the rightest of the totally wrong.
Must have been. Not being allowed to ask questions, read, watch YouTube. Withholding medical care from children…
Well, at least they got how to fill the coffers right.
Yup. 20 bucks a butt, but no passing the plate
OK, cool. If you didn’t make a fuss, how did you get the money?
Hi my name is Mike. I used to be a perfect Christian. I was also a perfect preacher. I went to perfect church. But it all sucks now and none of you know how to do it. I really don’t know what i believe i just know what i believe but i do know what you believe is stupid
I am in recovery but i fall off the wagon a lot. Like every day
Hi brother wally, it’s good to see you following the scripture so well.
—
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Romans 12:18 KJV
Are you going to answer James’ question? Or just continue preaching from a book you don’t respect?
He answered Jame’s question. He ignored mine.
I bet he ignores mine, too
James asked, “If you didn’t make a fuss, how did you get the money?”
Mike didn’t answer.
(Don’t look now, but I might have contradicted you again.) 😉
Yeeeeeeeaaaaaarrrrrgh!
Ah… Always good to hear from you. Have a great day
*rolls eyes*
Ill take “Evade the question” for 500, Alex
I applaud Mike’s consistency.
Most men would have buckled long ago and contributed something of substance to the comment section.
Ha no doubt
It sounded like a very clear answer to me! “I’ve suddenly realized how ridiculous it is for me to be bragging about a church I no longer care to attend.”
He said it plain as day. 🙂
He realizes nothing.
That is also demonstrative of his consistency.
Are you contradicting me?
Hmm..guess i missed it
Hey…Mike.
Look. It’s not me who tossed in the drive by pot shot comment.
I just think people should know that truth about certain commenters, lest they thing you actually ARE some authority in scripture and Christianity.
You are not. You are a atheist evangelist.
You reject anything to do with God’s Word, so for you to judge a believer on it, is astounding.
Perhaps to clear up all confusion you could you could simply share with everybody what you actually do believe, that way Wally the big bad Christian bully won’t tell lies about you.
Have a nice day preacher Mike.
Genius! A simpler solution would be to just preach to the itching ears.
I’m not sure it was genius or somebody dragged and dropped the offering time into the wrong place in planning center…..
I would still count that as an act of the Spirit.