I Dare You To Believe In God Now!

“According to the biblical account, after the Israelites received the law at Mount Sinai, they camped for 38 years at Kadesh-Barnea. Most scholars accept the identification of the site as modern Ein el-Kudeirat. Its location, the impressive [dig site], the availability of water and other environmental conditions make it by far the best candidate…” – Nahum M. Sarna in ‘Ancient Israel’ pp 55-56.

So far so good…but wait…just wait…

“There is one problem, however. It has been extensively excavated and no remains have been found earlier than the tenth century B.C.E., several hundred years after the Exodus.” – Ibid.

BOOooooooom!!!

That settles it.

Atheists jump for joy!

The ONLY reasonable conclusion to make from this…

…The Exodus never happened.

And if the Exodus didn’t happen…

…God is a myth!

Sorry, Christians.

…Your Bible is a fairy tale.

…

…

…

…why are you still listening?

…

…Abandon your faith!

…There is no God.

…

…

…

…still listening?

Okay…

…maybe there is another interesting little point to ponder.

Dibon-gad.

Ever heard of it?

Of course not….for the same reason you didn’t know Kadesh Barnea.

According to Numbers (it’s a book in the Bible)…

…the Israelites established a long-term encampment at Dibon-gad.

This site, like Kadesh Barnea, has been excavated extensively.

Archaeologists have dug up the whole place and found…

…no evidence there was a settlement.

“So what? Another bit of Bible fiction.”

There’s just one problem…

There’s a 15th-century B.C.E. list of cities on a temple wall in Amun (Egypt).

Carved by Tuthmosis III, the list includes a site named Dibon.

…to summarize…

…according to Egyptian history (so it’s evidence from OUTSIDE the Bible)…

…there was some kind of settlement at Dibon…

…even though there isn’t any archeological evidence to prove it.

A suggestion for ancient history hobbyists:

Archeology does not provide irrefutable proof of any Biblical claims.

Skeptics and doubters can dismiss every relic dug out of the sand.

Here’s a suggestion for those who believe the Bible is true:

Lack of archeological evidence DOES NOT make a Biblical claim ‘fictional’.

Responsible scholars understand. This is Nahum M. Sarna again:

“The biblical account is complex and contains many different kinds of assertions. At one end of the spectrum are facts we can be relatively certain of. At the other end are theological assertions that historians cannot deal with; by defintion, miracles are outside the historians’ ken.” – Ibid

So whether you’re a Bible literalist…

…or a hardened atheist…

…it boils down…

…as always…

…to faith.

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75 Responses

      1. My modum actually got hit by lightening. As my desktop was using an ethernet cable rather than Wi Fi the flash jumped the modem and fried my motherboard
        So there you go. Not such a smartarse after all,Amanda are you.

        Reply

          2. Bahahaha! When you say “not interested” it means exactly the same as what KIA meant when he said “not biting” a few minutes ago. It’s supposed to sound like you’re bored or just choosing not to answer. But everybody readying knows the translation:
            “I CAN’T ANSWER WITHOUT CONTRADICTING MYSELF.”

        1. Nope. I don’t attend Atheist church.

          I’m a simple, one-trick pony. And that’s why you’re the top commenter on this blog. You just can’t quit me. 😉

          See ya!

          Reply

  2. Interesting article, Brother john. People who believe and defend the indefensible, like slavery and genocide, suddenly pretending to do historical reasearch. Interesting indeed. Have a fabulous day

    Reply

    1. Oh, look! Pastor Mike is hoping for some blog fodder today.

      Here’s a quote for you:

      I’m a Christian, so I support drowning babies and pushing old ladies into the street.

      Will that do for you?

      Reply

      1. Hi Mandy, or should i say Antebellum Amanda? Do you think there were any babies and infants drowned in the Global Flood of Noah?

        Reply

          1. My new God? I guess you could say my ‘new’ God is older and much more well evidenced than the God of the ot. But you don’t really care about that do you? Evidence that is.
            But yes, the fictional mass murdering God of the ot is much less moral than ‘my new god’

          4. Yeah, I know what “not biting” means… lol. There’s no way to have a God “older” than a God that has no beginning, genius.

            Also–if you start talking about your God, you’re going to have some explaining to do with people like JZ and Ark. They’re not just “without belief in the Christian God.” They’re also actively hostile toward anyone who professes faith in ANY God at all…

            If you start trying to answer questions about your God, I guarantee it’s going to start sounding an awful lot like the one I (and billions of other people) worship. Same God; different names.

            But you’re too spineless to own up to it.

          8. Yes, belief in God is the topic of this post. And you inserted yourself in the discussion. You’re free to back out when it gets too uncomfortable. But I’m going to do what I always do, and call you out for being a coward when that happens.

            How did you find your new God?

        1. “Antebellum Amanda” is fine. Or “Sweet Cheeks.”

          You had your chance to talk about slavery on my blog, when you ran away (as always). This blog post isn’t about morality. It’s about history.

          Try to stay on topic.

          (Is that comment short and blunt enough to take a screen shot?)

          Reply

          1. …weeeeeeell, no screenshot. But SOMEBODY bothered him enough to have a bad poem written about them. (Guess I’ll have to work harder next time, if I want to get called out by name.)

            Meanwhile, we can deduce his new morality encourages people to define THEMSELVES.

            Luckily, I identify as a judgmental person who calls out bad thinking when I encounter it. So I think I’m still okay. 🙂

            Self-identifying is fun. I can see why he likes it.

          3. Lol!
            Hey, now! You’ve been known to write a poem or two in your life.
            Luke, too….

            But, granted, none of those poems were about being mistreated and misunderstood.

          4. He didn’t post his poem here, did he?
            No.
            It’s on his cozy, beta-blog space.
            And he didn’t link to this blog because we’ll ask him to justify his stupid claims.

          5. Even when he wrote a “response post” to what I wrote about slavery, he didn’t link to my blog anywhere… He just sent ME the link to HIS blog and invited me to come chat with his congregation over there.

            But–doesn’t his reluctance to link back show some critical thought and introspection?

        2. Hello?
          Beta…?
          Did you retreat to your blog to post about the abuse you’ve suffered here?

          …?

          Reply

  3. If you actually knew your archaeological history, you’d know Kadesh Barnea is just a single node in a vast library of clear evidences that have led biblical scholars, archaeologists, and Jewish rabbis to accept that the origin tale recounted in the Pentateuch is nothing but a work of 7th Century BCE geopolitical fiction. Ignoring the host of other evidences, including the fact that Canaan was actually under Egyptian military rule when the supposed 2.5 million Hebrews launched their Conquest (destroying, we’re told, 23 cities), the most telling slab of evidence is the Settlement Period.

    You see, John Branyan, there is no evidence of a 14th/13th Century “arrival” in the Judean hills. The hills were first settled 50 years after the landing of the Philistines on the Levant in 1,100 BCE, and the population (no greater than 30,000 for the first 100 years of that settlement period) did not exhibit Egyptian culture (pottery, clothes, diet, architecture, as they would, having spent 500 years in Egypt) but Canaanite. In other words, the hills where the kingdoms of Judah and Israel (which derives its name not from Yhwh, but from El, the head of the Canaanite pantheon) would be founded in the 9th Century BCE, were founded by Canaanite coastal refugees.

    Reply

    1. You see, John Zande, I made no mention of a 14th/13th Century “arrival” in the Judean hills.

      You have a comment that’s germane to the topic of this post?

      Reply

        1. I want to make sure we’re clear about this. After your tertiary Google search:

          Your argument is that the book of Numbers contains verified history regarding Dibon. (Wikipedia backs it up.)

          How does this impact your ‘the entire Pentateuch is historical fiction’ narrative?

          Reply

          1. John Branyan, historical fiction doesn’t mean “fairytale.”

            Tom Clancy’s The Hunt for Red October is historical fiction. It contains many real place names, like Washington and Moscow, actual technology, and even the names of the characters are contemporary. This doesn’t, however, make Tom Clancy’s The Hunt for Red October true.

            Like Clancy, the authors tried their best to make the story sound plausible, to sound real, because the story had real geopolitical goals. It’s a unity tale designed capitalise on a weakened Mamlekhet (Kingdom) Yisra’el after its sacking in 722 BCE. That is why we have Isaac in the north (Israel), Jacob in the south (Edom), and Abraham, the father, right in the middle in Hebron (Judah) uniting them, all.

            Great that Dibon pre-dates the Exodus. So does Jericho.

            Historical fiction.

            Dibon is one of 21 Stations mentioned… many of which, however, like Etham, Pi-hahiriroth and Baal-zephon to name just three, simply didn’t exist in the 14th century BCE, but did exist in the 7th Century, precisely when the tale was dreamed up… Precisely when the priest, Hilkiah, miraculously found the “ancient” books of the Torah hidden in a wall, telling this fantastic tale how his Kingdom, Judah, was in fact the center of the Jewish world. The same goes for Edom. We know through numerous extra-biblical sources that Edom would not become a named nation until 800 BCE, yet if we are to believe the narrative contained in the Pentateuch, it was in existence 1,000 to 1,200 years earlier.

            John, we don’t even have Hebrew (which contains 22 letters) before the 10th century (Gezer Stone). It didn’t exist. If “Moses” wrote the first five books in the 15th/14th Century then he would have used Proto-Sinaitic, which contains 27 consonants.

            So, again, historical fiction doesn’t mean “fairytale.”

            “There is no archaeological evidence for any of it. This is something unexampled in history. They [Judah] wanted to seize control of the territories of the kingdom of Israel and annex them, because, they said, `These territories are actually ours and if you have a minute, we´ll tell you how that´s so.’ The goal was to create a myth saying that Judah is the center of the world, of the Israelite way of life, against the background of the reality of the later kingdom.” (Israel Finkelstein, professor of archaeology, Tel Aviv University)

          4. I understand your point. Describing the Pentateuch as ‘historical fiction’ gives the casual reader the impressing that ‘the whole thing is made up’. I believe that is the impression you were trying to give in your article, was it not?

            Specific characters and events are often impossible to prove from archaeological evidence alone.

            Many (in fact, most) scholars don’t think the Exodus happened during the 15th/14th Century. The consensus is that it happened later (1200-1000 B.C.E). The actual time of the Exodus is uncertain. The name of the Egyptian pharaoh is uncertain. Most scholars believe the number of slaves leaving Egypt is much lower than the number given in the Bible.

            At some point, you decide who you want to believe. If it’s Finkelstein, so be it. He is a scholar. But he is not the only scholar.

          5. No, the “date” of the Exodus is not uncertain, nor is the numbers. The date (from Kings) and numbers are given, and it places the migration of some 2.5 million people (half the population of Egypt at the time), not including livestock, in the 14th century.

            That is the consensus, John Branyan.

            And yes, I’ll stick with the Israeli archaeologist, the bible scholars, and the overwhelming majority of Jewish rabbis… Learned men and women who have more invested in their origin tale being true than you could ever hope to have in ten-thousand lifetimes.

            Do you honestly think rabbis would take such a position if it weren’t for overwhelming evidence?

            Meditate on that question.

            “Would you willingly lie to your children? Would you say this is what happened when you know this is not what happened? There’s an ethical question there. The truth is out there. They’ll find this archaeological, evidence-based version of Jewish history, and then they’ll say, why did you lie to me?”
            –Rabbi Adam Chalom, Ph.D.

            Or as Rabbi Sherwin T. Wine so eloquently put it:

            The Jews did not begin with Abraham. The Jews did not emerge as a nation under the leadership of Moses. They were never rescued from slavery. They never stopped at Sinai … Facts are facts. They are enormously discourteous. They do not revere old books, they do not stand in awe before old beliefs. They do not bow before famous ancestors. They are simply the stuff out of which reality made, and the final judge of truth.”

            Or as Israel’s oldest daily Newspaper, Hareetz, announced in 2011:

            Currently there is broad agreement among archaeologists and Bible scholars that there is no historical basis for the narratives of the Patriarchs, the Exodus from Egypt, and the conquest of Canaan, nor any archaeological evidence to make them think otherwise.

            Let’s repeat that last line, because it’s important: ”nor any archaeological evidence to make them think otherwise.”

          7. That’s all you’re going to say?

            You don’t want to ask him HOW archaeology managed to prove that individual people never existed? Such restraint.

          8. Should I fire a bunch of quotes from other scholars?
            Think that will open him up to a broader understanding?
            He’s a fundy. I don’t care about convincing him.

          9. It won’t convince him. But, remember, there are a few “Michael Sinclair’s” who may be struggling with believing a “myth.” They need to know why the dates and the numbers–and even the names–are basically tiny details.

            Talk AT the tiny-minded JZ. But talk FOR the open-minded seeker of Truth.

          10. Questions are always good, as you know.

            I’d start with, “In 2000 years, what sort of archaeological evidence could we expect to find proving that HE existed?”

            Or maybe repeat the one that I already asked which he must have missed, “How can we tell which parts of a historical fiction piece really happened and which were made up?”

          11. Ask him those questions.
            I’m sure he’ll give you thoughtful, polite replies.

          13. “Defending a rabbi in the 21st century for saying the Exodus story isn’t factual is like defending him for saying the Earth isn’t flat. It’s neither new nor shocking to most of us that the Earth is round or that the Torah isn’t a history book dictated to Moses by God on Mount Sinai,” (Rabbi Steven Leder)

            “The patriarchs’ acts are legendary stories, we did not sojourn in Egypt or make an exodus, we did not conquer the land. Those who take an interest have known these facts for years,” (Professor Ze’ev Herzog, Tel Aviv University.)

            [The Pentateuch is an] “extended metaphor” ( Rabbi Bradley Shavit Artson, Dean of the Ziegler School of Rabbinic Studies at the University of Judaism)

            “The Pentateuch is the Jewish Mythology. My duty as a Rabbi is to interpret the Bible and consider it as my Mythology, as the founding story of the people of Israel, of course not to take it literally… it is not a book of facts, but a myth.” (Rabbi Nardy Grün)

            “The Pentateuch is filled with wonderful mythology of our beginnings.” (Rabbi Robert Schreibman)

            “The Torah is a piece of human literature. Its stories are fictional and that is how I teach them” (Rabbi, Jeffrey Falick)

            “The actual evidence concerning the Exodus resembles the evidence for the unicorn,” (Baruch Halpern, Professor of Jewish Studies of Pennsylvania State University.)

            “We looked for evidence for the Exodus in the Sinai Desert and found there was nothing in the Sinai Desert. We looked at the Patriarch stories and the times in which they supposedly lived, and it didn’t seem to match. Then we looked at the stories of the Patriarchs in the time they were apparently written, historically, and that matched much better.” (Rabbi Adam Chalom)

            “The story of Abraham has less to do with 1800 BCE, when Abraham presumably lived, than with 700 BCE when his story was created.” (Rabbi Sherwin T Wine)

            “Scholars have known these things for a long time, but we’ve broken the news very gently,” (Professor William Dever)

            “The Torah is not a book we turn to for historical accuracy,” (Rabbi, David Wolpe)

            “The fact is that not one shred of direct archaeological evidence has been found for Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob or the 400-plus years the children of Israel sojourned in Egypt. The same is true for their miraculous exodus from slavery” (Kevin D. Miller, Christianity Today)

            I could go on, but you get the point.

          16. Alright, whatever.
            I don’t really have the patience for you tonight anyway. It’s easier if I just put all my cards out on the table and let everybody else see them–before it gets buried at the bottom of a 400-comment back-and forth, in which you dodge or offer non-answers until everybody is bored to death.

            So here are two sources that every Theist ought to consider.
            On Lewis’ view of the differences between myth and fact: https://pursuingveritas.com/2014/05/07/c-s-lewis-myth-and-fact/
            And and Orthodox Rabbi’s take on the Exodus: http://www.reformjudaism.org/exodus-not-fiction

            For what it’s worth, JZ, my next question to you was going to be, “What’s the difference between the Bible’s ‘historical fiction’ and what you call a cultural ‘meme.'” And the answer, if you had a shred of integrity, would have been, “There is no difference.” The Bible is full of Truth–tons of it. But if you’re trying to read it like an atlas or owner’s manual, then the important Truth is lost on you.

          17. Alert the media! Contact every archaeological department on the planet! Send word to every synagogue and Jewish seminary! An American theologian has singlehandedly debunked a century’s meticulous work done by thousands of independent archaeologists, bible scholars, linguists, anthropologists, taphonomists, archaeozoologist, osteologist, and textual experts.

            How?

            By completely and utterly changing the written story so as it’s no longer even recognisable!

            And for his next trick, watch in stupefied awe as Richard Elliott Friedman (ThD) pulls a hare out of his arse…

          18. Changing the written story? I literally have no clue what you’re talking about…

            And if you think anyone has missed that you won’t/can’t answer my question(s), they haven’t.

          19. And John Branyan, are you aware of the Babylonian tale of King Sargon of Agade? It predates the Pentateuch by 1,000 years, and begins:

            “My humble mother bore me secretly. She put me in a basket of rushes and sealed me in with asphalt. Then she put me into the river…. The river held me up, and carried me to Akki, the irrigator who drew water from the river for the people. As he dipped his jug into the river, Akki carried me out. He raised me as his own son.”

            Sound familiar?

        1. LOL!
          Personally, I’m a little bit interested in Kadesh Barnea… But if you think anyone is going to trust Mr. Oxford Classic Dictionary to do the teaching, you’re nuts.

          Reply

          1. You’d like my article. It has lots of nice, colourful, explanatory pictures…. As I know you and your dad (and your other avatars) don’t like reading 😉

          2. He is literally quoting from a book that came recommended by William G. Dever–whom Ark mentioned a couple weeks ago (after watching a YouTube video).

            That sounds like a sarcastic jab, but it’s the truth. You guys read Wikis and watch YouTube videos. My dad has been reading the scholarly work.

            Your nice, colorful, explanatory pictures are exactly how I know you’re not the intellectual you pretend to be.

        2. Thanks! This is great! I hope everyone flocks to your blog to read your fabulously researched exposition!

          I especially like where you said,
          “The Jewish origin tale recounted in the Pentateuch is a work of geopolitical fiction.”

          Then, right here on my blog, you demonstrated that Numbers contains verified history! So much for the Pentateuch being ‘fiction’.

          Reply

  4. Hey john

    This post makes whey (takes a God given brain to understand this intentional misspelling) too much sense. The usual suspects will do a shuffle of course, as if the history of scripture cannot be trusted.

    Reply

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