Remember awhile back when Kanye West converted to Christianity and millions of Christians jumped for joy because a famous person was validating their religious views? We’ve moved on from Kanye and that’s too bad.

I cannot judge anyone’s heart. I can’t read anyone’s mind either. Most of the time, I can’t read my own mind. It’s a jumble of conflicting thoughts and uncertain conclusions. Often, at times of maximum uncertainty my mind decides, “I’ll write about this idea that I haven’t completely finished! Let other people read it! What can go wrong?”

We’re about to find out.

I need to say clearly, emphatically, and undoubtedly that I believe Kanye West has converted to Christianity. I do not doubt the sincerity of his testimony. I believe His enthusiasm for Christ is genuine. We will be together with God in Heaven because of Jesus. And because Kanye is now officially part of the church, he’s accountable to older, wiser, Christians. In other words, Kanye is a baby Christian who needs some time to grow. But that is not what’s happening.

Kanye has been ripped out of the nursery, placed center stage, and handed a microphone. When you let children preach sermons, this is what you get:

“I really appreciate the support, but I would like for everybody to be completely silent so I can let God flow through me as I speak to you guys.”

Pretend the person with the microphone is not an internationally recognized celebrity icon. Pretend it’s a just an ordinary guy who you’ve never seen before. How does it make you feel when he tells you to keep quiet and let God flow through him? If it doesn’t bother you a little bit, then let me humbly suggest that you lack discernment. I could easily claim God is speaking through me right now and you wouldn’t know who to believe.

That being said, I believe God is speaking through me. I believe he’s speaking through Kanye West as well. I believe God speaks through all believers regardless of their social status. God doesn’t need to silence one believer in order to speak through another. I don’t believe that in a crowd of 10,000 people, Kanye is the only voice for the Almighty. (And I feel like I need to remind you that I believe Kanye is a Christian. I’m not questioning Kanye’s faith.)

I grew up going to church. I’ve participated in countless Sunday School classes, Bible studies, and worship services. One of the messages that I’ve heard repeatedly in countless sermons is that God uses the meek and lowly. If I remember it correctly, Jesus himself was born in a stable. I heard that message over and over and over and over and never understood why it was a big deal. Now, I think I get it.

If Jesus had been a world famous celebrity, he would have attracted disciples effortlessly. People would flock to him because that’s what people do with celebrities. The message doesn’t matter. Jesus, if he was famous, could preach anything and his adoring fans would just keep adoring. Jesus spent the first 30 years of his life on Earth in obscurity. Then, His message made Him a celebrity.

Kanye’s ministry is the reverse of Jesus’ because Kanye is handicapped by fame and fortune. It’s going to be difficult for Kanye to get himself out of the way and let people see Jesus. Despite his sincere effort to make everything about Jesus, he’s just too big a deal. People flock to his concerts no matter what he’s singing about. His celebrity status gives weight to his message and that’s not always a good thing.

Kanye has the potential to become a powerful false prophet. And again, I’m not doubting his Christianity. (This is the last time I’m going to say this because it annoys me that I have to keep repeating it when I know somebody is still going to accuse me of judging Kanye’s heart…) It is possible to become a false prophet accidentally. When you put a magnet into a pile of nails, the nails stick to the magnet and it takes them wherever it goes. The magnet is not trying to be manipulative. It’s just the nature of a magnet to attract metal. Kanye is like a magnet that attracts people. Wherever he goes, he pulls people toward him and takes them wherever he goes. This isn’t Kanye’s fault. It’s ours.

We are too easily impressed by fame, wealth, and power. We are mindless nails that rush toward any magnetic force in the vicinity. We’ll listen to the “voice of God” from anyone with cultural influence. We’ll validate whatever message is the loudest. It doesn’t matter to us WHAT is being said; we only care WHO is saying it.

I’m ready to worship God along with Kanye West. I’m not ready to listen to Kanye West preach. I don’t think he’s matured enough. It is not good that the church is handing microphones to baby Christians. Kanye is attracting people to Kanye. He’s not doing it on purpose. Like a magnet, it’s just his nature. Our baby brother in Christ is already shushing us so God can flow through him. Older, wiser Christians should stop being star-struck and send the youngster to Sunday School.

We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Hebrews 5:11

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143 Responses

  1. “You just changed your definition of atheism. So, Club, show me where every atheist in the world agrees with Merriam-Webster’s definition. I’ll be waiting.”

    wow, JB, nice to see you really being silly.

    ““Funny how Club keeps repeating the same thing as if she’s making some profound point.
    Atheists don’t all agree with you about atheism.”

    Really? So, JB, show me where an atheist (a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods 🙂 – merriam-webster.com ) disagrees with me that there are no god/gods. I’ll be waiting.”

    Funny how I haven’t changed my definition at all. An atheist by defintion is someone a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods. You are indeed desperate, aren’t you, trying to play pretend that atheists aren’t atheists. We really do scare you when we don’t need you or you god.

    1. You don’t scare me at all.
      You puzzle me.
      I’m puzzled by your inability to carry on a civil conversation.
      According to this article, there are at least 17 different kinds of atheists: http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=6487

      Whether or not you agree with this person is irrelevant. This is EVIDENCE that atheists DO NOT ALL BELIEVE THE SAME THING.

      You are indeed desperate, aren’t you, trying to play pretend that atheists are all united in one belief.

      1. “You don’t scare me at all.
        You puzzle me.
        I’m puzzled by your inability to carry on a civil conversation.
        According to this article, there are at least 17 different kinds of atheists: http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=6487
        Whether or not you agree with this person is irrelevant. This is EVIDENCE that atheists DO NOT ALL BELIEVE THE SAME THING.
        You are indeed desperate, aren’t you, trying to play pretend that atheists are all united in one belief.”

        wow, and the dictionary definition is still right with all of those additions. I guess JB has no idea what an adjective is. Keep going, JB. This is getting good.

  2. “You haven’t shown any of my claims to be false. You haven’t actually addressed any of my claims.”

    which ones, JB? You can surely show these things you accuse me of, right?

    1. You said your commentary was showing my claims to be false. It is up to you, not me, to explain which of my claims is false. Surely you can show evidence that you have falsified my claims, right?

      1. And here we have that JB has no evidence for his accusations. Thanks, JB. That I’ve shown your claims about Christians being just one big happy family are wrong, ah, well, being dishonest never stopped you.

        1. I never made the claim that Christians are one big happy family. As usual, you have constructed a narrative that doesn’t match reality.

          1. here we go with JB’s usual tactic of trying to claim if he didn’t say it verbatim, he never said it. “Question which sect has the truth is not the same as fighting. The war between Christians is a figment of your cynical, and bitter imagination.” But let’s go with JB never saying or intimating that Christianity is one big happy family with only “minor” disagreements:

            Do you accept that per your version of Christianity, your daughter is damned for being a Catholic. It’s that “even though” part that shows no agreement between Christians. If Catholics are Christians, then there would be no need for the “even though”, right?

          2. LOL!
            No. My daughter is not damned for being Catholic!
            LOL!

            Like I said before, you’ve never engaged with any of my claims. You just make up ludicrous statements and attribute them to me.

          3. “LOL!
            No. My daughter is not damned for being Catholic!
            LOL!

            Like I said before, you’ve never engaged with any of my claims. You just make up ludicrous statements and attribute them to me.”

            Tsk, and other Christians say she is. Darn, who to believe.

            “Yes, Catholics do practice a form of idolatry, in violation of God’s command. The best way to reach our Catholic friends with the gospel of grace is to pray that the Holy Spirit will draw them and that they will respond to the Spirit’s leading. Their eyes and hearts are blinded by the false teaching they are continually hearing, and, until they begin to seek the truth, we must leave it in God’s capable hands. As we pray, we must keep loving them and trust that God will prepare the soil of their hearts (Luke 8:11-15). Never give up hope; the Holy Spirit does miracles every day.” https://www.gotquestions.org/Catholic-idolatry.html

          4. I’m not interested in defending random claims from around the internet. You seem to think that citing a different point of view is all that’s required to “prove my claims to be false”. You are gravely mistaken.

          5. “I’m not interested in defending random claims from around the internet. You seem to think that citing a different point of view is all that’s required to “prove my claims to be false”. You are gravely mistaken.”

            Funny how that’s not a “random” claim at all. But nice to see that Christians don’t agree again.

          6. Correct. Christians don’t agree.
            Atheists don’t agree.
            No two people agree about most things.

          7. I think it’s absolutely tragic that people break up and/or kill each other over differences of opinion. Thank God not EVERYONE thinks like Club… That’s why I’m able to have a great relationship with my sister…and people like Club spend 90% of their time trying to pick fights with people they don’t even know on the internet.

          8. “Correct. Christians don’t agree.
            Atheists don’t agree.
            No two people agree about most things.”

            Funny how Christians, who claim to have some magical truth, don’t agree about most things, including that magical truth. Atheists agree that there are no god/gods. That’s in the definition.

          9. Funny how Club keeps repeating the same thing as if she’s making some profound point.
            Atheists don’t all agree with you about atheism.

          10. “Funny how Club keeps repeating the same thing as if she’s making some profound point.
            Atheists don’t all agree with you about atheism.”

            Really? So, JB, show me where an atheist (a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods 🙂 – merriam-webster.com ) disagrees with me that there are no god/gods. I’ll be waiting.

          11. You just changed your definition of atheism. So, Club, show me where every atheist in the world agrees with Merriam-Webster’s definition. I’ll be waiting.

          12. Sam Harris wrote an article titled “There is No God.” And in that article, he said, “The atheist is merely a person who believes that the 260 million Americans who ‘never doubt the existence of God’ should be obliged to present evidence.”

            Hmmmmmm…. that seems to be different from the dictionary definition! Very interesting! I wonder how Tildeb and Ark and JZ and the rest of the gang can explain why Sam Harris describes Atheism as a positive belief in something???

            Uh-oh.
            https://www.huffpost.com/entry/there-is-no-god-and-you-k_b_8459

          13. Sam Harris wrote an article titled “There is No God.” And in that article, he said, “The atheist is merely a person who believes that the 260 million Americans who ‘never doubt the existence of God’ should be obliged to present evidence.”

            Hmmmmmm…. that seems to be different from the dictionary definition! Very interesting! I wonder how Tildeb and Ark and JZ and the rest of the gang can explain why Sam Harris describes Atheism as a positive belief in something???

            Uh-oh.
            https://www.huffpost.com/entry/there-is-no-god-and-you-k_b_8459

            ah, poor Amanda, now she’s left with quoting Sam Harris. Sorry, dear, but I’m not impressed with him, and don’t care what he’s said. The definition in the dictionary still stands and it doesn’t contradict what Harris said. Really Amanda, surely you can do better than that desperate little failure. Please do ask Tildeb, Ark, and JZ about this and we can both watch them laugh at your pitiful attempt.

            This is of course what Harris said in context “It is worth noting that no one ever need identify himself as a non-astrologer or a non-alchemist. Consequently, we do not have words for people who deny the validity of these pseudo-disciplines. Likewise, “atheism” is a term that should not even exist. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make when in the presence of religious dogma. The atheist is merely a person who believes that the 260 million Americans (eighty-seven percent of the population) who claim to “never doubt the existence of God” should be obliged to present evidence for his existence — and, indeed, for his benevolence, given the relentless destruction of innocent human beings we witness in the world each day. Only the atheist appreciates just how uncanny our situation is: most of us believe in a God that is every bit as specious as the gods of Mount Olympus; no person, whatever his or her qualifications, can seek public office in the United States without pretending to be certain that such a God exists; and much of what passes for public policy in our country conforms to religious taboos and superstitions appropriate to a medieval theocracy. Our circumstance is abject, indefensible, and terrifying. It would be hilarious if the stakes were not so high.”

            oh and look what Harris wrote in that article you linked to “There is another possibility, of course, and it is both the most reasonable and least odious: the biblical God is a fiction. As Richard Dawkins has observed, we are all atheists with respect to Zeus and Thor. Only the atheist has realized that the biblical god is no different.”

            It seems Amanda’s reading comprehension skills are wanting. Or she tried to lie and failed.

          14. Wait a second, you disagree with Sam Harris, an atheist, and I disagree with Christians. Hmmm, that sounds very similar.

  3. “Yes Club you are a wise, all-knowing, all-seeing leader.” Thanks, Jack. Now, you and JB are either lying or you agree with an atheist in what she says. I’m good with either.

    Which is it? Sarcasm doesn’t work very well on the ‘net. a common way to indicate is is with the “/s” tag.

    1. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with agreeing with an atheist about certain things. For example, we can both agree that ice cream is delicious, correct?

    1. “Hmmmmm,” is one of my favorite comments. 🙂

      The Holy Spirit told me the exact same thing. ❤️

      1. That’s the sound of someone who knows she’s supposed to disagree with me but can’t quite figure out what’s wrong with what I said.

        1. so, JB, isn’t it going great here with Christians attacking each other’s version of Christianity is wrong with no evidence at all? 🙂 And please do show how we should believe your version and not someone else’s.

          1. Club I go to a Pentecostal school, I’m a Baptist. Most of my friends are devout Pentecostals. That doesn’t sound like Christians attacking each other does it?

          2. Jack, the fact that you have to say Pentacostal and Baptist underlines my point. Should I be impressed if your friends are Catholic and Mormon and Jehovah’s Witness too? Such a fine bunch of Christians, yes?

          3. of course they are JB. It’s a Christian thing to be *civil* while questioning which sect has the truth and who is “mature”, etc. Which of you are the true Christians?

          4. Question which sect has the truth is not the same as fighting. The war between Christians is a figment of your cynical, and bitter imagination.

          5. JB, you seem to forget that lovely hate between sects. Catholics and Protestants have killed each other over this “Question which sect has the truth is not the same as fighting. The war between Christians is a figment of your cynical, and bitter imagination.” Both sides were burning each other at the stake, torturing each other to death, etc, all over whose version was the right one. Google “catholicism sun worship” here’s a great post by a evangelical being every so sure that Catholicsism is wrong: https://billmuehlenberg.com/2002/06/28/a-review-of-hail-holy-queen-by-scott-hahn/ not exactly the minor disagreements you try to clam.

          6. John just released a podcast about how he still loves his daughter even though she’s Catholic. You should give it a listen.

          7. “Do you realize it’s not the Middle Ages anymore?”

            Yep, and the reason Christians can’t keep physically attacking each other is thanks to our wonderfully secular laws. You can’t force your versions of Christianity on each other at the end of a gun or a sword. As usual, many humans have outgrown their ignorance and hate. Some haven’t.

            “John just released a podcast about how he still loves his daughter even though she’s Catholic. You should give it a listen.”

            Oh wow, “even though” she dares to be catholic, someone is just ever so nice to be willing to still love them. Jack, you do my work for me.

          8. So you’re not accusing Christians of killing each other anymore. Great! We agree about that.

            I disagree that humans many humans have “outgrown their ignorance and hate”. You seem to possess an abundance of both.

          9. “So you’re not accusing Christians of killing each other anymore. Great! We agree about that.

            I disagree that humans many humans have “outgrown their ignorance and hate”. You seem to possess an abundance of both.”

            Alas, JB can’t support his claim nor can he excuse why Christians attack each other here on his blog or out on the internet. But JB, please do show me how I am ignorant or hateful. Or is this just you again trying a kindergarten argument tactic?

          10. Well, Jack, JB has told me he agree with me and what I say and that I’m very wise. Is he lying or not?

            Does he accept that per his version of Christianity, his daughter is damned for being a Catholic. It’s that “even though” part that shows no agreement between Christians. If Catholics are Christians, then there would be no need for the “even though”, right?

          11. You haven’t shown any of my claims to be false. You haven’t actually addressed any of my claims.

      2. I’m sure it did. You see, amanda, you’ve hit upon the claim of Christians that never is shown true, that their holy spirit told them something special. All of you claim that the ol’ HS tells you something special and then the next Christian claims you are wrong and are lying about the HS. How do we know if any of you are telling the truth?

          1. We’re actually still celebrating right now! Ham, turkey, mashed potatoes, green beans, macaroni and cheese and a whole assortment of pies. Now we’re about to play a game.

          2. Home now.
            And tomorrow we’re decorating for Christmas. 😊 What a wonderful time of the year!

  4. shucks, jb, no more whining about capitalization? christians claim that their god speaks through them, and those Christians make up what they want to claim god says. what we get is wildly contradictory things that are all supposedly from this one god. It’s rather like how christians claim that the holy spirit tells them how to interpret the bible and curious on how the ol’ hs gives entirely contradictory interpretations. We have Christians who say their god has no problems with homosexuality and those who claim it does. we have christians who say that priests have to be celibate and others who say church leaders can be women, and married! and lesbians! We have christians who claim predestination is the way and others who say this god gives free will. we have christians who claim that prayers are answered and christians who claim they aren’t.

    of course each and every one of them claims that they are the only true christians and the rest aren’t christians at all, the classic no true scotsman fallacy. So much for your false claim of a strawman argument, jb. Do show us that you are the only true Christian. The bible offers many ways to determine who is who.

    1. Words that should be capitalized: Shucks, JB, Christians, Of, We, We, JB. Not counting words like Holy Spirit and Bible.

    2. @clubschadenfreude

      I am a bit reluctant to say God speaks through me. The only true Christian is Jesus Christ. The rest of us imperfectly follow His example. The rest of us hope He will live through us.

      I point to the Bible, and I say that is God’s Word. Still, there are times we hear and see God in others. That is when someone speaks and acts with greater love and wisdom than they ever could on their own possess.

      When God shines through us, if we are sufficiently wise, we give Him the glory. If not, we claim it for ourselves.

      The Bible tells us stories about people who were sufficiently wise and those who were not, and this is what we see in Christians today, some who are humble and some who undermine their witness with their own pride.

      1. A word of warning, Club doesn’t actually like to debate she’s just going to call you a Christian fraud. Obviously, feel free to debate with her but it will be very one sided.

        1. So, Jack, if you aren’t lying, do show where I don’t like to debate. The bible says not to bear false witness and not to lie ever, not even when you think lying helps your god. I’ll be happy to wait for you to support your accusations about me. Quotes will suffice. You might want to also show the quotes where John says I’m very wise and that he agrees with everything I say. Either he is lying there or he isn’t a Christian at all and is leading you astray.

          1. Ok Club, I’m going to ask a question, you give you’re answer and I rebut it. If we can’t do this like civil members of society I’ll admit I was wrong. Why are you a god denier?

          2. I find it interesting how Club coincidentally stops reading comments when asked a direct question.

          3. Club’s responses are exactly the same regardless of the conversation. It’s the reason we hypothesized that Club is actually software – not a human.

          4. “Ok Club, I’m going to ask a question, you give you’re answer and I rebut it. If we can’t do this like civil members of society I’ll admit I was wrong. Why are you a god denier?”

            There is no evidence for your version of your god or anyone’s version of their god. You disbelieve those other theists who don’t agree with you just like I disbelieve you.

            Interesting that you want to lie about me Jack, rather than think that I’m busy enjoying the holiday weekend.

          5. How would a world so complex that not even the greatest minds ever couldn’t understand it, be created by a random explosion? Honestly, I truly appreciate you answering the question

          6. and still waiting for Jack to support his accusation “A word of warning, Club doesn’t actually like to debate she’s just going to call you a Christian fraud.”

          7. Club, read your own comments! You completely ignore my last comment because you have no idea how to answer. Therefore, you refuse to debate. You have answered my original question, but you backed it up with zero evidence.

          8. “Club, read your own comments! You completely ignore my last comment because you have no idea how to answer. Therefore, you refuse to debate. You have answered my original question, but you backed it up with zero evidence.”

            Jack, you do need to have a little patience. You make a fool of yourself every time.

            “How would a world so complex that not even the greatest minds ever couldn’t understand it, be created by a random explosion? Honestly, I truly appreciate you answering the question”

            There was no “random explosion”. Christians like you are always showing how lazy and willfully ignorant you are by attacking something you don’t understand. We may not ever understand the whole universe but that doesn’t mean a god was needed. What we have is a universe that obeys the laws of physics and those laws seem to indicate that only they are needed to start a universe. No god, yours or any other, needed. The laws of physics can be just as “eternal” as your god.

            We do understand quite a lot of the universe and again, we’ve never seen your god or any other god be the answer to anything at all. No magic needed. We see a universe that has laws and us humans fit into those laws like water fits into a puddle. We know that these laws work and we use them to invent things like gene therapy, and GPS sattelites, and solar panels, and nuclear reactors and gamma knives for radiation therapy. Physics supports those things and it also supports the BBT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

            Now, let me ask you this: how could something so complex as this god of yours supposed is come about at all with no creator? You see, Jack, you want to use special pleading about your god and it just shows that you have nothing. No evidence for your version of your god. No evidence for the essential events in the bible, nothing at all.

          9. There of course was a “Big Bang” creation, but that creation was set in place by an intelligent creator. Now on the subject of the creation of God. I won’t pretend to understand how but God has always been there and will always be there. You say the universe obeys the laws of physics, which is true, but isn’t it possible that those laws were put in place by God?

          10. “The question is not about what other Christians believe you asked me what I believe and I told you. Also, there is a need for a God, because something can not be called forth from nothing without a higher power.”

            So, why do you believe one thing and other Christians another Jack? Your simply declaring that there needs to be a god is a baseless claim. We have no evidence that gods exists, that gods can call forth things from nothing or that a god called forth the universe. You have a presupposition that a god is needed, nothing more. The laws of physics seem to handle something from nothing just fine.

          11. “How can things can be called forth from nothing without a creator?”

            Quantum physics indicates it can happen. Here’s one of many articles on the concept: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/something-from-nothing-vacuum-can-yield-flashes-of-light/

            No god, yours or any other, needed to “call” anything forth. And still no evidence for any gods. You start with the presupposition that there needs to be your god just like any other theist with a creation story. The problem is that none of you can show your god exists at all. You try to infer a god from the existence of the universe.

          12. Does the vacuum that yields flashes of light exist, Club? If it exists, please explain how it is “nothing”.

          13. “Does the vacuum that yields flashes of light exist, Club? If it exists, please explain how it is “nothing”.”

            wow, JB has no idea what a vacuum is. almost as pathetic as Amanda’s nonsense.

          14. “LOL
            This was YOUR link: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/something-from-nothing-vacuum-can-yield-flashes-of-light/

            Did you forget?”

            nope. Please, JB, where does the article say that a vacuum is “something” as you claimed here “Does the vacuum that yields flashes of light exist, Club? If it exists, please explain how it is “nothing”.”

            here is what the article says “A vacuum might seem like empty space, but scientists have discovered a new way to seemingly get something from that nothingness, such as light. And the finding could ultimately help scientists build incredibly powerful quantum computers or shed light on the earliest moments in the universe’s history.

            Quantum physics explains that there are limits to how precisely one can know the properties of the most basic units of matter—for instance, one can never absolutely know a particle’s position and momentum at the same time. One bizarre consequence of this uncertainty is that a vacuum is never completely empty, but instead buzzes with so-called “virtual particles” that constantly wink into and out of existence.”

          15. Club, if you saw a watch in a store you would say that had a watch maker. How would something as complicated as the universe not have one?

          16. “Club, if you saw a watch in a store you would say that had a watch maker. How would something as complicated as the universe not have one?”

            The laws of physics suffice to get what we have. Again, nothing needs your version of your god, Jack.

            The watchmaker analogy is even funnier to be applied to your supposed god because it shows your god to be utterly incompetent at making “watches” if you want to claim it made the universe “for” humans and “made” humans. What kind of a moron would intentionally make the sun cause humans cancer? Put the trachea right beside the esophagus so thousands of people die from choking every year?

          17. God allows people to get skin cancer because God is just, and that is the punishment for our royal screwup. Now on the second question, why would the body have evolved so that the esophagus and trachea are near each other? I honestly don’t know why it’s there, but I have a feeling you don’t either.

          18. “God allows people to get skin cancer because God is just, and that is the punishment for our royal screwup. Now on the second question, why would the body have evolved so that the esophagus and trachea are near each other? I honestly don’t know why it’s there, but I have a feeling you don’t either.”

            Hmmm, now who *did* screw up in Eden? We have this god that either allowed Satan in or was unable to keep it out. Adam and Eve had no idea what good or evil was, nor that it was good to obey god, so they were left alone with the second most powerful being in the universe. And being omniscient, this god knew that they would so it intended this to happen. If not, then it would have kept out the serpent, yes? aka the common claim everything is “God’s Will”.

            We also have this god needing satan to make salvation happen (per the author of Luke), because no dead Jesus, no salvation. That’s quite screwed up god you have.

            Now, is it just for a baby to get cancer? I guess you must be a Catholic if you think that’s so. is it just to have an animal get skin cancer for something it didn’t do? Do you think it is just for someone to be punished for someone else’s actions? Hmmm, well, your bible is of two minds on this “or I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, 6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation[b] of those who love me and keep my commandments.”

            or

            “16 Parents shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their parents; only for their own crimes may persons be put to death.” Your god forgot to obey its own laws when it killed David’s son for something David did. So much for objective morality.

            It doesn’t make much difference if I know why the esophagus and trachea evolved to be where they are, it’s your problem since you want to claim your god made humans. However, it didn’t take me long to find out why they are so close. Lungs evolved from the gut tube that our long ago ancestors developed and when we are forming in the womb, one buds off the other. https://ucmp.berkeley.edu/phyla/deuterostomia.html There are risks, like choking, but it seems the benefits outweigh that, like talking, able to control the warmth and dampness of air entering our lungs so we can be in more climates, etc.

          19. Why did God allow Satan into Eden? Because if there wasn’t a darkness, Satan, the world would be perfect. If the world was perfect then it would be God, and God can’t create himself. Also we were gifted with free will, and if you have free will you must have the ability to do wrong or you have no freedom. So no, God isn’t evil he’s a God who has given us a gift of free will and allowed us to exercise that gift. Thanks for telling me why the esophagus is next to the trachea by the way.

          20. “Why did God allow Satan into Eden? Because if there wasn’t a darkness, Satan, the world would be perfect.”

            You mean like heaven? Does there need to be evil in heaven? By your claim, yep, there needs to be.

            “If the world was perfect then it would be God, and God can’t create himself.”

            God isn’t creating himself, this god created the universe, per Christians. Is God the universe? How pantheistic. Again, funny how the claim that heaven exists shows your excuses to be silly.

            “Also we were gifted with free will, and if you have free will you must have the ability to do wrong or you have no freedom. So no, God isn’t evil he’s a God who has given us a gift of free will and allowed us to exercise that gift. Thanks for telling me why the esophagus is next to the trachea by the way.”

            No mention of free will in the bible; it is the complete opposite. This god, per your bible, repeatedly interferes in human activity, abrogating free will. Instances of this is interference in what the pharaoh did, forcing the Egyptian people to give up their wealth to the Israelites, interfering in battles, killing people for things that they didn’t do or for no reason at all (see David’s son among others), and the best one in Romans 9 where Paul says that this god doesn’t allow some people to accept it. Free will doesn’t work if this god is acting against humans.

            If there are miracles now, then again this god abrogates free will. But of course, Christians can’t agree if miracles happen now or not.

            You’ve made things up to excuse your god again, and are intentionally ignoring what the bible says.

        2. “There of course was a “Big Bang” creation, but that creation was set in place by an intelligent creator. Now on the subject of the creation of God. I won’t pretend to understand how but God has always been there and will always be there. You say the universe obeys the laws of physics, which is true, but isn’t it possible that those laws were put in place by God?”

          again, not all Christians agree on that’s what happened, literal creationists really hate Christians who dare to claim that their god worked through the BBT or evolution. But many do, showing that Christianity comes hat in hand to science to make sense and ignoring their bible when it makes silly claims like the stars are little lights on a ceiling, and that they can fall on the earth.

          There is no evidence that any “god” has always been anywhere, so you don’t pretend to understand anything but a baseless claim. There is no reason to need a god. The laws of physics can be just as eternal. The universe will follow them to what seems to be a cold dark end. Then we might get another quantum fluctuation and we’re off the races again.

          Is there a possibility that some force is behind the laws? Sure, a teeny tiny one, since we have no evidence, but it isn’t your god as described. That god has quite a lot of definite things about it that can be shown true or not. The problem for you is that nothing has been shown that supports it exists any more than any other god. Claiming some vague force gets rid of the Christian idea that they are special, that some magical afterlife exists, etc. Karen Armstrong and Chrisitans like here with their “ground of being” claims show how much Christians want to get rid of their god that has so many flaws. This of course ends up with people like Tillich making claims that are pretty odd: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Tillich#Use_of_%22being%22_in_systematic_theology

          1. The question is not about what other Christians believe you asked me what I believe and I told you. Also, there is a need for a God, because something can not be called forth from nothing without a higher power.

      2. That’s good Tom, since most Christians insist that their god agrees with them and speaks through them. Per your own bible, there are plenty of Christians, those who are baptized and accept Christ as savior. Do you disagree with your bible?

        Christians point to their bible, which there are hundreds of translations, which all Christians don’t agree on. Then they claim that it is “God’s Word”. The issue is that Chrsitians don’t agree on what this god wants or says or has done. Which of you should I believe? Calvinists? Catholics? Mormons? Jehovah’s Witnesses? Evangelicals? You each insist that your own opinions are this “greater love and wisdom” but then the next church over makes a different claim.

        Each Christian claims that this god “shines” through them, and again, a completely different message is said that contradicts the next Christian. This is why there is no reason to believe any of you. Each of you points finger and claims “pride” is in those they don’t agree with and then insists that their version is the only “wise” one.

        The hypocrisy is palpable.

        1. @club

          Do Christians think Jesus speaks through them? I am curious. What do you think that means exactly?

          What about that palpable hypocrisy? Well, “palpable hypocrisy” is a trite expression, but hypocrisy has never been palpable.

          Are Christians hypocrites? I know plenty of Christians. I agree that most of us are hypocrites. Most of the human race engages in hypocrisy. Because pride makes almost us all of us want to appear better than we actually are, almost all of us strive to appear better than we are.

          If Christians have been born again, why are Christians still hypocrites? After someone is justified by their faith in Jesus Christ, the next step is sanctification. That takes time. How much time? I don’t know. I just know I am a bit better than I was before I accepted Jesus as my Savior.

          If you are looking for a free lunch, don’t become a Christian. Even though Jesus has done all the work, you won’t like what you do have to do. You will have to repent of your sins and put your faith in Jesus.

          Look at all the crow you will have to eat. Since you enjoy belittling Christians, you will have to eat lots of it. Still, your portion of crow is not likely to be as large as the Apostle Paul’s. He did not just badmouth Christians; he killed Christians. So, instead continuing to glory in your “obvious superiority”, perhaps you too could humble yourself, repent, and give yourself to Jesus. But that is between you and God. Any Christian bring a repentant sinner to Christ, but only God can give a sinner new life.

          Does God shine through Christians? Yes. Christians make up the body of Christ, that is, we are suppose to allow Him to live through us. Doesn’t work perfectly, of course, but God has only begun a good work in us, not completed it. Therefore, if you want to judge us, you have a difficult task. How do you know what a Christian would have been like if he had not been born again? How do you even know which of us has been born again? Just because someone calls themselve a Christian does not mean they have accepted Jesus as their Savior.

          Frankly, I doubt you know what you are talking about. Ridicule such as yours is the stuff of foolishness. You gain nothing by putting others down. Shaming others gains you nothing except the pity of the wise, and the hatred of the foolish. Therefore, I suggest you read the Book of Job and think about it. You are behaving like Satan, the Accuser. That poor dumb fallen angel did not know what he was talking about either. And the funny thing is is that Satan is smarter than any of us. He is just so filled with foolish pride that his great gifts do him no good.

      3. Tom,

        Christians claim that Jesus speaks through them. What do you think that means? For me, it means what the Christians say, that Jesus speaks through them. What they say is what Jesus wants them to say? Is it different?

        Yep, Christians are hypocrites. No, most of the human race doesn’t engage in hypocrisy. That’s a typical Christian excuse for themselves e.g. “everyone else does it.”. They don’t. You have to lie about others to excuse yourselves.

        Christians again don’t agree on the whole “born again” claims nor with your “steps”. There is no reason it should “take time”. People who are better than you never had to accept your religion at all.

        Again, Christians don’t agree on how people are saved, so why should I believe your version e.g. your “free lunch”? As for not liking what I’ll have to do, what is that I have to do, Tom? Christians don’t agree on that either. Am I already saved thanks predestination? If I was saved, am I always saved? What are sins since Christians don’t agree on what they are? If I put my faith in Jesus, the bible claims that I should be able to heal people of injuries and sickness. You can’t so why should I believe in what the bible says?

        Eating crow? When? Christians keep making prophecies on how people are going to regret not needing them or their god, but it’s been 2000+ years now. And Paul, well, there’s precious little evidence he existed at all. That Paul can’t keep his own origin story straight, I’m not impressed. Again, Tom, how am I to repent when Christians can’t agree on how and for what? As for your god, well, Paul says that this god prevents some people from ever being able to accept it. So your claims that you can bring a repenant sinner to Christ isn’t true at all, is it? You contradict what your bible says.

        Does God shine through Christians? Well, which ones? Your god seems to need time, which belies the claim that this god is beyond time and space, Tom. It could do things immediately being omniscient and omnipotent, but it doesn’t. it is somehow restricted to humans to act like humans and to work on their timescale. You’re right, I have no idea who is a Christian unless they tell me and unless they tell me they’ve been born again, I have no idea. Your actions don’t change one whit from any other human being on the planet. You could be Muslim, Hindu, Wicca or an atheist. Like every Christian, you are sure that only you and those who agree with you are Christians. You insist that you’ve accepted Jesus but you discount those who also make the same claim if they don’t agree with you.

        You can doubt all you want but that doesn’t change reality. I was a Presbyterian Christian and I know the bible very well, having read it as a Christian and as not (and yes, you’ll deny I ever was a Christian since that scares you) Your bible says that not agreeing with your god is “foolish”. Funny how every religion make this claim, including other Christians who call you foolish for not believing like they do. I gain quite a lot by standing up against the false claims of Christians and their actions. That you find you can be shamed is interesting. You vainly call yourself wise, just like every other theist who insists that their religion is the true one. And hmmm, am I foolish or are people who disagree with me foolish “Shaming others gains you nothing except the pity of the wise, and the hatred of the foolish.”?

        I’ve read the Book of Job. It’s quite an interesting one. This god intentionally allows Satan to murder a family so this god can show off how great Job is and in turn how great it is. it brags and boasts to Job when Job questions it. Then, at the end, Job calls this god on its actions and this god replaces Job’s family with a new one and gives Job money to accept this god’s actions. Tom, would you accept a new family/money and meekly accept a god that allowed them to be murdered by its archenemy for no more reason than for this god to show off? If you would, we can see that you have a morality built on might equals right, nothing else. I’m certainly not Satan and not your pitiful god that rose to its bait.

        As for Satan being smarter than us, well, he does get this god to do things for him; he allows humans to know good and evil which God was afraid of them knowing; making humans work for Satan (Revelation 17), and this god intentionally allowing Satan free so it can corrupt Christians left after this god killed everyone else (Revelation 19-21). This god also needed Satan to get his blood sacrifice of Jesus since it took Satan to make Judas do anything per the Gospel of Luke. If Jesus lived a good and happy life, then Christians would be damned without Satan. Satan and this god are quite the buddies.

        1. @Club

          Not familiar with too many Christians saying Jesus speaks through them.

          Most of the human race doesn’t engage in hypocrisy? I bet you think that most of the human race most of all includes you. 😞 Yet here you are angrily trying to hold Christians accountable to standards you don’t believe in.

          Are Christians in complete agreement? Is the human race in complete agreement about anything? In a fallen world?

          When you start listing Mormons as Christians, it is fairly obvious this is getting silly. Why don’t you just label Christianity, Islam, and Judaism as different Jewish sects?

          Can I bring a repentant sinner to Christ? You? You have repented?😒

          Did God love Jacob and hate Esau? Yes. He is God. He is our Father. Fathers don’t always explain themselves. Usually it is because children cannot understand. Did God give Job an explanation for the pain he suffered? No. Job could understand the mind of God? Seriously?

          Predestination is a complex topic. Doubt anyone understands it, but this much we can say. God is in control because He ordained what will happen. Yet somehow we still have a free will. How does God do that? I have not got a clue.

          What did God do for Job? He told Job — showed him — that he could not understand what He doing. Look at you. You are in a snit because God isn’t meeting your demands in this life. Meanwhile, God is finding a place for those who love Him in eternity. You are angry priorities are all fouled up! Yet you are blaming everyone else. That’s makes no sense.

          The reason you don’t understand the Bible is that you are trying to make what you believe more important than what God KNOWS. We know next to nothing. The human race knows next to nothing, and that does include you.

          Virtually every one of us will die. Yet you foolishly accuse the One who has made an eternal home in Heaven for those who love Him of murder? Preposterous! If God is only concerned about our existence in this life, then ….. What is the point of this discussion? Why are you wasting your time and my time?

          Eat, drink, and be merry…..

          1. Tom, your claims of personal incredulity aren’t important to anyone but you.

            Nope, most of the human race doesn’t’ engage in hypocrisy. You might, and you do try to lie about me being angry. That is a common tactic of Christians, making false claims like that about atheists in order to ignore what I’ve said. Yep, I do hold you accountable to what you claim to believe. It’s interesting that you don’t like that. Exactly how am I being hypocritical doing this, Tom?

            You again try to excuse your religion by trying to make more false claims. Fallen world? Where? That is nonsense from your religion. There is no evidence of a fallen world, just like there is no evidence of heaven or hell or your god. Nope the human race doesn’t agree about much, though we do agree in large part on what behaviors make civilization work. However, we are indeed just human. Your religion claims a magical being that supposedly handed out some “truth”, but strangely enough Christians act like there is no god like that at all since they make claims that they and only they know this truth and you have no evidence to support your claims. It’s just like theists are humans who make things up.

            Good to see you deny that other Christians are Christian, Tom. This underlines my point well. You can’t show that they aren’t just as valid as you are as Christians. None of you have anything that shows your beliefs are true. As for Christianity and Islam being sects of Judaism, I think a good argument can be made for that since Jesus was supposedly the Jewish messiah, and many Christians run to the OT when they want to put their laws in public buildings and when they are looking for prophecy. I’m less familiar with Islam, but they think Jesus is just one more prophet in a long line of them, including Moses.

            Nope, no repenting here since your god is imaginary and Christians can’t agree on what anyone needs to repent.

            Yep, Paul said that your god hates one person and loves another. No reason, just a whim from this god. Fathers who are abusive don’t explain themselves. You are offering yet one more classic Christian excuse, that we supposedly can’t understand your god when it is convenient for you. But oh, when you want to claim you know what your god wants, suddenly that “mystery” ends. Per your bible, humans can understand good and evil as well as this god supposedly can. You should read it sometime.

            Predestination isn’t a complex topic at all. It’s pretty straight forward when this god supposedly picks and chooses those who can accept it and those who can’t, then damning those who can’t because this is what this god wants, nothing more. Again, we have your morals based on might equals right. Dictators love people like you, Tom. We have no free will per your bible. If you want to claim your god does miracles and interferes with humans, then free will is gone. That you haven’t got a clue isn’t surprising. You make nonsense up.

            There is no evidence for your version of your god, Tom, nor is there any evidence that this god is “finding” anything. Your god allowed a family to be killed so it could show off, Tom. It’s no surprise at all that you don’t want to answer my questions about that, Tom. I’m not in a “snit” but I do find it necessary to point out what your bible and your religion claim and how harmful it is. You seem to be willing to have your family killed if this god wants it done. That is disgusting.

            I do understand the bible quite well. What I know is indeed more important than your imaginary god that you’ve created in your image. We know many things, Tom. But if you want to claim we know “next to nothing” I do expect you to not use all of the things that humans have invented and discovered. You wouldn’t want to be a hypocrite would you? You need to falsely claim we “know next to nothing” so you can continue to make believe that your god exists.

            Yep, we will all die. The earth will be destroyed eventually too. So? I have no problem in pointing out that some imaginary character intentionally allowed a family to be murdered by its supposed archenemy so it could show off to this enemy who already knows who it is. The only thing that is preposterous e.g. “ contrary to nature, reason, or common sense” is your god. This god isn’t concerned with anything since it is imaginary. The point of this discussion is to point out the false claims and bigotry of some conservative Christians and the ridiculous things that the bible claims.

            And yep, “If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” Paul evidently quoting Ecclesiastes: “15 So I commend enjoyment, for there is nothing better for people under the sun than to eat, and drink, and enjoy themselves, for this will go with them in their toil through the days of life that God gives them under the sun.” The dead don’t rise.

        2. @club

          I actually have better things to do than to try to refute endless streams of idiotic allegations. However, you do help people to understand how our president feels. So, I suppose you serve a useful, albeit unintended purpose.

          Since you put so much effort into your comment, what is worth responding to? Did the Apostle Paul make an allusion to Ecclesiastes as you suggest? Suppose so. Note the phrase “under the sun”. That phrase is used throughout the book. It refers to life without God. If you don’t believe in God, King Solomon would say you are wasting your time. You should be enjoying what you can of your fleeting existence. Of course, if you get your jollies by trying to torment Christians, I suppose that could be your only pleasure. Sad!

          Do we know very much? Compared to the Creator? Of course not. Compared to what remains to be discovered? Assuming we could know everything, what is there that we don’t know? Well, you say we know a lot, but I think it more accurate to say we know more than our ancestors knew. We don’t know what we don’t know. In fact, we have lots more questions than answers.

          You say you understand the Bible. Yet you interpret what the Bible says in ways that are wildly different from the ways of those who believe the Bible is God’s Word. Therefore, your interpretations have no practical value except to sow confusion. That is what an apostate does.

          You say I said that other Christians are not Christians. That is akin to saying I said a rock is not a rock. I don’t think I have said anything so meaningless, but that is a good indication of the lengths to which you are willing to go to distort the words of others.

          Go and read Romans 8:28. Consider the implications. Then reflect on the fact that you jumped all over our host for suggesting that God might speak through him.

          Was John saying anything arrogant? No. Every Christian is part of the body of Christ. When we seek and do His will, we believe He works though us. That means God will use our words too, but few of us have the presumption to proclaim we speak for the Lord. Still you had to take offense. Well, Jesus did say there would be people who would do that.

          With your silly, insane conduct, you affirm the Truth of God’s Word. Romans 1 describes all too well how someone who refuses to honor God will behave. Sadly, you fit that description. You distain others and do only what seems right in your own eyes. That’s why it is so difficult to take you seriously. If what we say and believe does not matter to you, what is the point of replying to your comments?

          1. So, Tom, please do stop. IT’s great to see that you have to write over 400 words in your protest about how many better things you have to do. Ah, and you are a trumpie, someone who follows a liar, a cheat, a self-described sexual abuser, someone who has committed adultery, someone who attacks POWs and Gold Star families, who has lied about getting Mexico to pay for his wall and who took money away from our service members and their families to pay for his failure; who works with murderous dictators and who has screwed over miners and farmers. Golly what a great Christian you are to support someone who says he doesn’t need forgiveness.

            Yep, Paul did reference Ecclesiastes. That you “suppose so” is a great indication that you are amazingly ignorant of your bible, but most Christians have never read it. Nope, the reference “under the sun” doesn’t refer to a life without this god. Indeed, if one reads Ecclesiates, you can see that the author says that this god gives the life under the sun. The author says he doesn’t understand this god, but as this god claims, it gives both good and evil. One is to obey the “king” and live life well. This reflects Isaiah 45 quite well “I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides me there is no god. I arm you, though you do not know me,6 so that they may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is no one besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.7 I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the LORD do all these things.”

            If it torments you to be shown wrong, that is a problem for you, isn’t it? And since King Solomon didn’t exist nor did he write Ecclesiates, and he contributed nothing to the world despite supposedly being the “wisest” man, I’m not concerned with Solomon. I’m enjoying my fleeting existence quite a bit. It is important to stand up to people like you, Tom. But it’s nice to see you try to convince me not to. It does get tedious, so it isn’t a pleasure. I take my pleasure in my husband, my painting, my cats, my family, a nice glass of wine, etc.

            Since you have yet to show a creator, yep, I know more than it. As compared to what remains to be discovered? We still know a lot. All you have is yet one more god of the gaps argument, hoping desperately we’ll find your god someday. Yep, we also know more than our ancestors knew, those ancestors who invented your god and religion.

            Yep, I understand the bible. That I interpret it differently than you doesn’t’ make me wrong. I know that Christians don’t all interpret the bible the same as you so, using your argument, who are you to say you and only you have the correct interpretation? All you have is a bad argument from popularity fallacy. Since not every Christian agrees with you, all Christian intepretations have no practical value per your own argument. You just all call each other apostate and all fail to show that you are the one TrueChristian at all.

            Nope, Tom, you have said plenty that was meaningless. But your insistence that Christians who disagree with you aren’t Christians is just like a rock saying another rock isn’t a rock.

            I’ve read the entire bible, so telling me to read one specific verse is just a Christian trying to pick and choose what he wants read. Yep, let’s read Romans 8:28 and a few more verses with it “28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.” Yep, it’s all about this god picking and choosing who it will allow to accept it and who it will damn through no fault of their own, just like Romans 9. I was a Presybeterian so I know this nonsense well. The promise in these verses, that somehow everything works together for the good of those who love this god is belied by reality when Christians don’t benefit from this god at all. Your lives are just like everyone else’s. Paul goes on to show that his morals are just might equals right. Paul is wrong since just basic evidence can cause someone to realize that this god isn’t real, no angels or anything else needed.

            Tom, you claimed that no Christian you known claims that this god speaks through them, but then you acknowledge JB did? Which is it? This “I am a bit reluctant to say God speaks through me. The only true Christian is Jesus Christ. The rest of us imperfectly follow His example. The rest of us hope He will live through us.” Or this “Not familiar with too many Christians saying Jesus speaks through them.” And I asked you to tell me what you thought about your own question and you seem to have ignored that, not unsurprisingly. Just like you have ignored my question if you’d be good ifyour god demanded your family be killed with no explanation.

            Each Christian claims to be the body of Christ, and to do its will. The issue is that you all disagree on what that “will” is. I’m quite happy to point out the ignorance and arrogance of Christians. What Romans 1 does is try to lie and say that just because someone doesn’t agree with Paul, they do all sorts of awful things. That atheists don’t do these things (not any more than Christians) shows that Paul was wrong and just attacking people he didn’t like, bearing false witness. I’m happy to do what is right in my own eyes since your god is certainly less humane and moral than I am.

            Indeed, Tom, why do you reply to my comments?

          2. Club please do stop. IT’s great to see you have to write over 400 words in protest of Tom’s comment,

  5. I have a personal statistic that I don’t particularly like to admit, but it is nevertheless fairly accurate. That is, I have personally lead more individuals to Christ during my first five years as a Christian than the last thirty. I also have the perspective of feeling called to be a pastor during those first five years, going to college to be a pastor, and then spending another five years learning to listen to what God really wanted me to do. Now, for the last twenty-five years, God’s Word has been delivered through me – but not from the stage. But, I’m confident that I am precisely where God wants me to be.

    My personal experience illustrates two sides of this conversation: that a new Christian can effectively deliver the Gospel and bring people to Christ; while also being very susceptible to running off in the wrong direction because he has not learned how to listen to God’s voice (or to those older and wiser for that matter). John’s caution is completely warranted. The Apostle Paul said, regarding pastors (i.e. overseers), “He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.” 1 Tim 3:6 That is a serious warning.

    If I had entered into Christianity with some level of notoriety (call it a level of success), then mix in the Christian’s natural affinity towards the ministry with a heaping dose of naivety, my Christian life could have become very different. Really, who’s to say that I wouldn’t have my own John Crist moment before I realized that it was not God that I was following.

    In retrospect, I could have used this kind of advice as a young Christian. However, I’m here because of God’s grace and faithfulness.

  6. John,
    I had a question and couldn’t find another place to contact you so I opted for the comment section. I’ve read Gerald Shcroder’s “Science of God” and tend to agree with his age of the universe theory. However, most of my classmates tend to agree with the traditional Biblical view, and I’m having a hard time articulating my position. Any suggestions on how to explain it. Again sorry for the inconvenience of the comment section. Thanks,
    Jack

    1. @jacklowry

      How do you know if you understand the message?

      I think Apostle John covers that issue in 1-3 John. If you want to know what defines an apostate, that’s the place to go.

      The basics of Christianity are summarized by the Apostle’s Creed. If we believe the Bible, then it is hard to argue against the Apostle’s Creed. Once we accept the Bible is true and start reading it like we would read any other book, the Bible is not ambiguous about the basics. We have go out of our way to make it mysterious.

      That said there are a wide variety of different Christian denominations. Which one is closest to the Truth? The only way we can determine that is with the Bible and God’s help in comprehending the Bible..

      1. I would disagree with the Bible not being mysterious. If it was a simple book why would some of the greatest minds ever have spent their entire life studying it?

  7. You know who I would really like to see shut up? Those who call themselves “mature Christians.” Boomers, some elders, and a whole bunch of those in churchian leadership. I pray all the time that the Lord keep me and protect me from ever becoming a mature Christian because when that happens we begin to lean into our own understanding and we suck the joy and wonder right out of what God is doing in the world.

        1. I define a mature Christian as someone who has spent enough a long enough time in the faith to develop some wisdom. I would agree that “wisdom” is arbitrary in some aspects. I don’t think spiritual authority is a bad thing.

        2. He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ. Colossians 1:28 I would prefer this to your definition. Now if you want to say Paul created the term then that is your opinion and you are welcome too it but I think it is disingenuous to say the Bible does not want Christians to mature in their faith. Much like Kanye needs milk now he will need to move on to meat eventually. Hebrew 5:13-14

        3. @IB

          Won’t say the are no such mature Christians. Nonetheless, before anyone presents themselves as Dom sort of expert and starts preaching and teaching Christianity, don’t you agree that they should read the Bible, if they can?

        4. @IB

          …. the Bible several times and completely missed the whole message.

          There are theologicians who miss the whole point, but that is because they don’t believe. If we believe the Bible, then we should crave to know what it has to tell us. The Bible itself tells us that.

          Studying the Bible is difficult. It requires work and effort. Our human nature does not like making that sort of effort. That’s why some people remain baby Christians.

          So, should we discourage the enthusiasm of new Christian converts? No. We should catch their enthusiasm. We should do what Jesus said when He gave us the Great Commission. Matthew 28:16-20

    1. I think you have missed what it means to be a mature christian. A mature christian would not lean on his or her own understanding. I speak as someone who has been an elder for some twenty years and I wouldn’t even claim to have achieved the level of maturity I should have by now but I also don’t drink milk anymore. A mature christian knows they become less as Jesus becomes the greater in their life. That Jesus would choose any of us is a wonder and joy to me.

      1. At the moment the so called “mature Christians” have invested their entire worldview into a piece of fried chicken, they are having a terrific argument over baptizing the Baby Yoda, and they think the biggest threat to our faith is Beth Moore. Meanwhile the so called “baby Christian” is out visiting prisons and preaching the gospel.

        1. Don’t look now but if you discerned these things then you are maturing. The wisdom to see that those aren’t the hills that Christians should be dying on I would agree with.

          1. “I pray all the time that God will keep me from becoming one of those mature Christians.”

            Well, that explains some things… :/

          2. I would say those that are fighting battles over issues you listed, may be mature in age but not mature Christians.

        2. You’re not describing “mature Christians”. You’re describing “confused, know-it-all teenager Christians” (regardless of physical age).

    2. I’m not sure why you’re making a case against Christians maturing in the faith. Maturity doesn’t lead to arrogance or joyless living.

  8. I don’t think criticizing his presentation is helpful. You are correct he has no biblical education but God can, and has, used all manner of broken people. He does have a stage and is using it. I despised him as a performer and won’t go see him now. But praying for him, rather than warning what he might do, would be a better direction. I can’t tell you how many pastors I’ve heard asking God to speak through them. You ask, he responds. Good for him. I also quite enjoy reading most of your stuff and have been played the Three Little Pigs for most everyone I know. My grow kids can likely recite it by rote due to the number of times I’ve forced them to listen while In the captive vehicle.

    1. I agree that God uses all manner of people. Do you agree that celebrity status is a handicap that the church must help Kanye overcome?

  9. “That being said, I believe God is speaking through me. I believe he’s speaking through Kanye West as well.”

    sure, John, sure. Funny how those who claim that god is speaking through them always disagree on what this god wants them to say.

          1. “A” should be capitalized.
            The first letter of every sentence should be capitalized. It won’t make your hateful spew more coherent or relevant but it will make it less obvious that you’re deranged.

      1. I haven’t missed you but conservative Christian nonsense needs countered. It’s always good to see Christians showing just how nonsensical their religion is when each is sure that they and only they have the OneTrueChristianity(tm).

        it’s even more fun when JB has nothing but whining about capitalization. He can’t address the fact that each Christian insists that their god is talking through them, and strangely enough this god says wildly contradictory things, just as if the Christian was making it up.

        1. I’m sorry you don’t feel the same, I thought we were really getting somewhere. I will say you’re capitalization has improved.

        2. “He can’t address the fact that each Christian insists that their god is talking through them, and strangely enough this god says wildly contradictory things…”

          Christians don’t believe God says ‘wildly contradictory things’ to each of us. Atheists throw this straw man into conversations believing it deserves rebuttal. It does not. I am not obliged to address your red herrings.

          I can address your continued violation of the rules of capitalization.

        3. Have you ever thought that maybe if you were a more reasonable person we might want to discuss things with you?

          1. Since I’m reasonable, you then have no excuse. But keep complaining about capitalization, Jack. it’s always good to see that becoming an issue when it never was before, showing just how unreasonable you’ve become.

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