I wrote a helpful, non-religious reply to an atheist’s request for advice.
Strangely, this upset an atheist.
The entire dialogue is available for review if you choose.
With compassion, humility, and gentleness I will tell you the conversation is HILARIOUS!
The atheist bludgeons me with the Bible.
He channels The 700 Club to lavish shame upon me.
The heathen is annoyed because I’m not behaving like a Christian!
But I’m not upset.
I’m empathetic.
The poor chap has no basis for determining right and wrong.
Atheism is a void.
The void cannot produce a moral code.
The void cannot define compassion.
The void cannot accuse me of cruelty.
So the atheist reaches for the New Testament!
And preaches a sermon from the book of Colossians.
Praise The Lord!
Typical fundamentalist.
The Bible isn’t something he reads for himself.
He’s only interested in applying the Bible to me.
He doesn’t believe in the Holy Spirit so he is compelled to convict me himself.
Forgive me.
BWahahah hAHAHAHA!
*snort*
If you pagans intend to use the Bible in conversations…
…you shouldn’t put so much effort into trying to convince me that the Bible is fiction.
71 Responses
I must admit after reading this that you should have humbly admitted that you were in breach of your “to die by” Christian book of God’s rules. After all it was obvious and you left yourself wide open. You will be judged by mortal man.
You gain respect for admitting mistakes, otherwise you lose.
On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 8:03 PM, The Comedy Sojourn wrote:
> John Branyan posted: ” I wrote a helpful, non-religious reply to an > atheist’s request for advice. Strangely, this upset an atheist. The entire > dialogue is available for review if you choose. With compassion, humility, > and gentleness I will tell you the conversation is HI” >
Hilarious!
You spent last week assuring me that morality is subjective. Now you’re going to tell me I’ve misbehaved!
I guess I’m not sure what’s that different from from Allallt trying to speak “Christian” language to believers versus using Atheist reasoning to show internal inconsistencies within Atheism…
I think it’s comparable to calling out a Buddhist for not following the eightfold path, a muslim for not adhering to specific practices, or an nihilist for saying we ought to do this and that.
I guess you could say that Allallt is taking things out of context, but I don’t think he should be called out for using the Bible – it’s at least and attempt to speak your language. If anything, he should be mocked for misusing the text (or that mocking should be clearer), not for using the text.
What made it “mockable” was that Allallt was commenting on a post designed to call out Atheists for their internal inconsistencies…
The original satirical piece (written by my dad) was exactly what you’re describing: an attempt to speak their language in order to say they OUGHT to do this or that.
Instead of engaging that point, he tried to flip the script by saying, “Yeah–well YOU’RE not living consistently either!!” He claimed he was “holding up a mirror” for Christians to see how they don’t measure up. But things went south because he never did look into the mirror which my dad was holding up for Atheists in the first place.
I suppose I can respect that point. It is frustrating for the conversation to get derailed as such.
I’ve been in many situations where the conversation drifts to a weakness in one’s point of view, but then instead of responding to the weakness, they just say “Yeah, well your view sucks because xyz”.
I’d still go with mocking him for reasons beyond just using scripture, though ^_^
Oh, trust me, I mock him for every reason I get the opportunity…
Wait, that’s what you meant, right? 😉
lol.
Agreed – we are always to speak the truth. Sometimes when we aren’t living what we are speaking we will rightly be called out – sometimes by those who don’t believe – simply because they have the ability to recognize hypocrisy. One of the reasons I love Ephesians 4 is that it is such a great picture of HOW and WHY we are to act. To speak truth while having nothing but a desire to see the receiver helped…..Sometimes truth takes over and the love part is set on the sidelines. I remember one of my boys eating his brothers pizza…..When asked why he would do this…..”I’m being a blessing to him” . Really? How so? ” Well he’s getting a bit chubby so I wanted to be a blessing and eat his pizza so he doesn’t get fat” lol…Love kid logic sometimes! Point is, he was sincere. Yet the pizza-less brother sure didn’t feel “blessed” at that time…..He felt robbed and hungry. We can often do the same with truth and try to force our own interpretation of what is good for someone upon them.
I may be babbling at this point……It’s been 3 hours, four cups of coffee and typing with my fingertips trying to follow all the comments in the thread. I’ll depart to the forest and my chainsaw to clean up the mess the wind has made……Only to be reminded that the same mess out there is what my life was like before Christ. ( Oh there are still a few logs out of place!) The Truth set me free, but it was love that got me to listen!
Madelyn is an awesome Christian woman, full of compassion and mercy for the lost. And wisdom too, because indeed we should all be living our faith and letting our lives speak the truth about Who we follow.
The problem arises when we begin to fear conflict, when we walk away when we should be standing, when we don’t speak the truth to people. When you witness someone on the internet losing their faith, deconverting due to the work of evangelizing atheists like Allalt, it changes your perspective on the alleged morality or the immorality of “compassion.”
People have spoken the truth to me many times. It can be painful, offensive, and not “feel” compassionate at all, but let us never fear speaking it because we are called to do exactly that.
@ib22
Such a beautiful observation and full of tact..
1. Defending another Christian woman who is awesome on may fronts.
2. Taking note of the evangelistic mission of the so-called atheists to paint believers as imbecilic morons on a regular basis, who supposedly cannot reason, and whose mission is not fulfilled until humanity is rid of God, scripture, and faith, and who will never be satisfied until all are sitting in the cesspool of godlessness.
So yeah, there will be differing opinions, many offenses, and here’s a bonus thought. It seems the antagonists of the Lord who faced Him directly at least believed in God, AND His word………….today the militant wing of godlessness which recognizes neither is out of this world.
Thank you, IB, for your too kind words. I don’t have anything like the compassion I ought to have, nor even what you graciously give me.
And I know you’re not saying it of me, but in case anyone has interpreted me that way: I’m not suggesting we fear or even avoid conflict. It will come. I agree with what you said. We must speak the truth, as Jesus did, and expect ultimately to suffer for it, as Jesus did.
To others:
We are the ones who are supposed to at least make the effort to turn aside conflict with love, not the ones who bludgeon our debaters with our superior wit.
I’ve earned my degree at the school of atheist blog debate. I’ve experienced lots of Allalt, Zande, Ark, ETC. I do not lack context.
The problem I had with the comments here were that Allalt was raising a good point –no, he didn’t have valid standing to make it, we all get it! –which nevertheless ought to have been answered honestly. Instead he was ridiculed. He pointed out the vacuous-ness of the replies he received, only to get more jokes.
Is the ONLY point here that atheists don’t have moral legs on which to stand? That they’re the MOST ridiculous? Or can you actually carry on a debate with some substance? It was embarrassing.
I’d still be curious what you think of the videos by the man with the ministry to Muslims. And I also thought The Ancients’ question was a good one, “How would you go about giving an Atheist advice–using just the principles of Atheism?” I’m still not quite clear whether it was the original post, or the comments underneath, which embarrassed you…
The gospel is an offense to the world. Let’s not confuse unbelievers with the addition of our own offense.
I’m not sure whether you saw the videos I shared somewhere else in the thread, but I’d be curious what you think of those…
I think the videos are largely irrelevant to this conversation. A smug man reading testimonials off a website from people no one has met? Weak.
He makes the same error many are making here. The intended audience matters. First, I wouldn’t call what Jesus said to the Pharisees ridicule anyway. But even giving you that, he reserved His harshest criticism for people who were supposed to be representatives of God to the faith community, but who were defrauding those faithful. In our context, he was accusing the priests and pastors, commissioned with shepherding the faithful, of instead using the faithful to aggrandize themselves. They were betraying God.
It was an in-house relationship here; he was not talking to hopeful converts or anyone outside of the “church” this way.
Did He use “ridicule” against the people he sought to bring into the kingdom? Find me the passages and we’ll talk.
The surest indicator that your own case is weak is when you purposely misrepresent your opponent’s case. David Wood’s debaters are not suggesting that “being nice” or “giving them flowers” is the counter to the ridicule method.
Neither have I suggested that being nice was the counter to the ridicule tactic here. No one has suggested that Jesus was ever “nice,” and a straw man is a straw man is a straw man.
As Jasmine pointed out elsewhere in the thread, these Atheists are also religious leaders. AND they misrepresent God.
But, beyond that, I am confident that David Wood has done more to spread the Gospel than either of the two of us. How can we argue against people saying, “Thank you for your ministry–keep it up” ?
Is it possible that your understanding of ridicule is based on your cultural training? Is it possible you are trying to emulate only part of Jesus’ character when you refuse to use ridicule as the tool that it is?
I guess I need to ask: can you please cite me chapter and verse where you believe Jesus used ridicule?
As in, sarcasm? Yes.
But you want a chapter and verse where Jesus said “LOL,” no, I can’t.
Chapter and verse please. Even assuming sarcasm is the same as ridicule, which it isn’t.
If you re ridiculing someone, you have contempt for him. That’s what it is. Jesus did not have contempt for us.
I guess I’m just not one to create a list of do’s and don’ts out of things Jesus DIDN’T say. We know he used sarcasm and called names for good. He did it for the benefit of the Pharisees–and for all those around them (as a warning they shouldn’t become that way.) Why wouldn’t Jesus do the same for the benefit of Allallt?
@theancients: Here I thought I was taking part in a civil conversation and all along I was upset and contentious and motivated by pride. Thanks for letting me know!
I came back today to answer mrsmcmommy’s question because I thought it might be rude to ignore it. Please excuse me for conversing too long and especially for voicing a contrary opinion to yours and some others’ here. How could I have been so wrong?
I actually had taken Ancients to mean that *I* had been the one dragging the dialog out too long…(since I had asked you several questions)
Talk about irony! I guess that’s another example of the fact that not everyone interprets comments the same way…
I bowed out of this ‘discussion’ when I realized that contention and winning an argument was more important than the actual genesis of the discussion.
Proverbs tells us that pride is the ONLY source of contention.
I bring this up because it’s quite telling that a day later this ‘discussion’ is still being had. Who is it that is stirring up strife and contention and for what purpose.
If, as we say, we’re promoting the love of Christ, what would Jesus prefer we do – well He told us – unity and love for the brethren (He didn’t say unity and love for the world).
Getting upset because someone uses satire to point out the incoherence and irrationality of another’s religion/ philosophical worldview is a strange reaction to have if that’s not your philosophy.
When the apostle Paul does it [uses satire, sarcasm, irony] – it’s a loving act… When others do it – it’s behaving badly.
I believe the Christians who raise an objection to satire/sarcasm/irony (and lol’s) genuinely feel conviction about it. I’m trying to tread carefully, because I want this to be a place where believers can question other believers when they think someone is out of line. Some of our most popular podcasts have been those featuring family members confronting each other about disagreements. And that’s what the Body of Christ is! A family of people trying to figure out how to be the most effective as a group, so we should be free to say, “I think what you’re doing is wrong/sinful.” 🙂
When we stop getting criticism here, I’ll be a little more uncomfortable, because it will suggest we’ve created an echo chamber.
But, that said, I still stand behind both the words and the methods used with the arrogant Atheists, because I know the spirit with which it is being done. I realize the tone comes across as “smug” and “contemptuous” to some of the body-parts (and that’s why I say they absolutely should not use mockery themselves!). Yet, the tone known to most Americans as “loving” and “gentle” doesn’t always come across like it’s meant, either. Personally–I often find the standard Christian personality fake and annoying. :/ I’d rather have someone use blunt, biting wit in dialog with me ANY DAY, and I know I’m not the only one. Apparently certain Middle Easterners respond better to that as well. 🙂
Anyway, keep the criticism coming! And I’m totally comfortable with a little Good Cop/Bad Cop. I mean, just look! Pastor Mike has gone through and “liked” several of MadBlog’s comments. Perhaps we really are a great team!
🙂
Not only for agreeing with your response…
That smile was for Pastor Mike ‘liking’ several comments [I guess he still believes in Jesus after all].
He told me a few months back that he used to be “twice the Christian” that I am now. And, a few weeks ago, that I’m not a Christian at all. lol.
Methinks he misses the convenience of beating people over the head with Jesus… It’s not too late to come back to the fold, and tell everyone else they’re doing it wrong! 😉 (But I will NOT allow him to preach to me from his place of non-belief.)
hahaha…
The inconvenience hasn’t stopped him from beating people over the head with Jesus –
now he gets to whack from both sides:
you’re unlike Christ
your Christ is a fiction
Preaching from a place of unbelief is what he’s learned quite well from his elders.
If only he’d being that sharp in the teachings of Christ – but seeing that Atheism is void, ‘being sharp’ should be easy.
Mike still hasn’t learnt that the time one spends in Church has no relevance to the type of Christian – if they’re even one- one is.
I’m not talking about being “nice”, not remotely. We are called, every single one of us, to be the representative of God Almighty in Jesus Christ to every single person we encounter.
Jesus had no time for religious hypocrisy and demonstrated God’s intolerance of it. But we are not called to be the Holy Spirit to anyone, including unbelievers. We are to offer God’s nature and attributes (what a privilege to have his own attributes within us!) to all we meet, then to leave the results to a relationship between the unbeliever and God. I see a lot of assumptions about Allalt’s state of mind and his spiritual state–we cannot be so presumptuous to know any of that.
Jesus was not “nice.” He spoke the Truth, He was Truth, and it got Him killed. I see a lot of presumption here over what Allalt DESERVES to hear from us. As he is, once we were my brothers and sisters. Thank God Jesus did not write me off because I had a bad attitude!
The ‘advice seeker’ sought for ‘atheist advice’ – answers devoid of the spiritual, the gifts of the spirit, the goodness of God, the principles of Christianity, meaning etc.
When given such advice, Allallt swiftly took offence and wonder beyond wonders begins speaking in tongues quoting the very scriptures he [and the seeker] has rejected as fiction.
There are no assumptions about his state of mind and spirituality. Read his comments and his blog.
He either believes what he says or he only says them just because ? atheism is randomness?
Jesus had no time for religious hypocrisy –
– that’s true. Allallt is no exception. He’s an atheist hypocrite. His tables (whatever he was selling) were turned over by JB and he was sent scurrying from his atheist temple to quoting the words of Jesus (who he claims doesn’t exist).
Pray that he stays on his knees a while longer in humility until he’s changed by the Holy Spirit.
No one said anything about what Allallt deserves to hear. The ‘advice seeker’ was being given advice in accordance to what he stipulated (godlessness); it was Allallt, who contrary to the seeker, sought the benefits of Jesus’ teachings all the while denying His very existence.
Assumptions about what Allalt deserves to hear are still being made–here–by you.
Really? Are you really equating what Branyan is doing on these two posts with Jesus turning over tables?
Again, Jesus was zealous for God’s Name and was demonstrating righteous anger AT THOSE HO PRESUMED TO REPRESENT HIM– WRONGLY.
He directed no such attitudes toward the lost. He died for them. That “them” includes you and me and Branyan. And Allalt. And Ark, JZ, and everyone else.
Also, to equate remote ridicule with Jesus’ holy zeal is too sad for me to explain.
I’d just like to point out that I’m in no way trying to “call out” John in any way shape or form. If anything he deserves “kudos” for even taking the time to try and reach out to someone who so vehemently opposes any notion of God. Far be it for us to sit in judgement over “how” John went about it. My only observation is that sometimes this seems like a place where we come to mock unbelievers for their ignorance or foolhardiness. For them to come and see that (as many atheists frequent the blog) could have devastating effects that we may not see the results of this side of heaven. Truth and love…..It’s the hardest thing we as Christians have to do on a daily basis!
Wow, lot’s of activity already this morning! 🙂
I appreciate the dialog. My dad and I recorded a podcast yesterday that touches this topic. (It will come out Monday.)
Basically, the conclusion I have come to over and over and over is, if you don’t have peace about being mocking and/or sarcastic with foolishness, don’t do it. I’d never insist for another Christian to take the same tactics that are used here, because I strongly believe the Body of believers needs to use all sorts of strategies. The contrast between the dove and the serpent is what makes the Church stand out.
But, I’ve been exploring this idea of “cultural Christianity” for a couple of years now, ever since I started my own blog Cultures at War. To what extent are our doctrines (and understanding of Jesus’ character) colored by our cultures rather than by God Himself? Are Americans failing to reach certain groups, simply because their Westernized version of Christianity has elevated a form of “niceness” to godliness?
One thing is FOR SURE: if you spend enough time speaking with non-believers in a public forum, you WILL have your methods questioned by someone who would do it much differently. I have no problem with being questioned. I just have a few questions of my own in return… 🙂
Another Christian brother who has this on-going conversation about his mocking tactics:
And here’s the next video in the same series… “I regard ridicule in the appropriate circumstances as an incredibly loving act.”
Good points being made all around here, I think. On one hand mad madblog is absolutely correct in that out behavior should be more loving.
On the other hand though, Allalt is not just a non-believer, he is a scoffer whose absurdity needs to be highlighted.
All that you say about the unbeliever may be true. Not the point.
The point is OUR behavior. Does it reflect well on Christ? Does it represent him? are we showing that we are becoming more like Him?
What the unbeliever does with the truth is not ours to control. Our responsibility is to represent Him faithfully and that is crystal clear in Scripture.
I do not worry for Allalt as much as I do for Branyan.
Madelyn, how would you go about giving an atheist advice – utilizing the principles of atheism.
You worry more about me than you do an outspoken God hater? That’s some misplaced concern, my friend.
I believe Christians are unified into one body with parts that function differently. Every body needs an asshole.
*giggles*
I laughed out loud…
But, another thing that someone needs to understand if they haven’t read every, single comment you’ve made (as I have) is that you’re not JUST mocking, 100%, all of the time.
There have been plenty of examples of conversations where you changed the tone, to offer a spark of hope or encouragement. You have presented a version of the Gospel message many times. And you’ve consistently attempted to find places of agreement. Just last summer, I had a loooooooooooong (long, long) conversation with Allallt that ended amicably. But–lo and behold–he’s still trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole–so he still says stupid things…
Anyway, what I’m trying to say is, you’re not JUST an asshole.
You only perform that function when the Holy Spirit leads. 😀
John Branyan, can you point out the passage reference for the spiritual gift of assholeness?
Do you disagree that every body needs one?
No, the church does not need assholes.
Really? Which part will do the work of eliminating waste?
Explain to me the “waste” in the Body of Christ and also please point out the passages for the elimination of said waste WITHIN the true church.
You and I are on the same team. We are different parts of the same body. We both know the Gospel is truth and atheism is false.
My goal in writing these posts is to expose the folly of godlessness. I sincerely don’t care if people get upset as long as I’m telling the truth. Somebody pointed out that the gospel is an offense to the world. Offended people frequently get angry. If you read through the entire comment section, you’ll see that I did answer Allallt’s questions. He chose to ignore the answers and continued advancing his agenda. God has not called me to beg atheists to listen to reason.
I’m speaking to Allallt EXACTLY the way I appreciate being spoken to. There is no hypocrisy on my end. I’ve discovered many bits of wisdom at the end of a pointed jab. The truth hurts and I am not immune to that pain. Pain is a catalyst for change…unless the pain is ignored.
For the record, my post was a response to an anonymous letter written by an alleged atheist. There was nothing personal in the post.
Please keep reading and commenting. I will not agree with you about everything but that is NOT a good reason to end the conversations.
I hope I didn’t cross any lines. I apologize if did, and feel free to point out where I was too snarky if so.
I don’t think we can assume that other people appreciate being approached exactly the same ways that we do. My point was that what’s important here is not how you, Allalt or I feel about the truth—our goal is to reflect Christ’s nature, represent Him, and obey His commands. I’m not sure we are charged with communicating truth in a purposely painful manner. Yes, the Truth hurts, but let it be the truth that hurts, not us.
My comments were about the comments, not the letter. But enough said or now. Thank you for being gracious.
LOL!!!!
God didn’t make farts funny for no reason 🙂 haha sorry I just couldn’t get over that!
I disagree with Madelyn.
Allallt’s complaints only serve to confirm scripture – that he is without excuse because even though he knows God exist, he refuses to acknowledge God nor consider Him worth knowing as his Creator. Instead he chooses to call God and Jesus a fiction.
Wisdom (The Holy Spirit) speaking in the book of Proverbs says – she will laugh when calamity comes your way and mock at your panic because you have rejected her teachings, her call to knowledge and understanding of the Holy…[I’d rather be mocked by believers than be mocked by Wisdom for my steadfast foolishness].
Second, Elisha mocking the prophets of baal – And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, “Cry aloud, for he is a god. Either he is musing, or he is relieving himself, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.”
Scorners like Allallt do not “read our book” (our lives, the life of Jesus nor the words of scripture) for wisdom, edification, knowledge or growth. They read it to denounce the God we serve, to mock Him and blaspheme Him (I refuse to even write some of the disgusting things they’ve said of the God you serve); to tell us how illiterate we are for serving an invisible being etc.
The original post was about giving atheist advice – one that is devoid of meaning, much more the Holy.
Getting upset because one’s philosophy is irrational should be cause for the godless to rethink his choice – not pass on the blame. As Scripture says –he is completely without excuse, he has no legs to stand on. Better learn that from now and not wait until he’s on his knees before Almighty God.
@theancients – your comment is gold. Couldn’t have said it better.
@madblog – if we are representing the same Christ who turned over tables in the temple, who called out Pharisees, and named hypocrites a vood of vipers and tombs filled with dead men’s bones, then I think Branyan’s behaviour is on point. The more I read of Scripture, the more I see how little time Jesus had for people who trusted in their own righteousness, and were too full of pride to admit their own inadequacy, their own folly, or the fact that they could quite possibly be wrong. He wasted no compassion on these people. He did not make them feel good, and He certainly didn’t mince His words about it. Those He was kindhearted and gentle with were those who humbled themselves before Him. The truth is a sword, and it will make people bleed at times. It may heal, but first it wounds. This doesn’t give us license to go out of our way to be harsh, but Scripture does say a fool invites a beating.
Replies getting lost in threads…I’m going to need more practice!
@Jasmine……. While I agree that Jesus did call out the Pharisees in a very strong way, they were the religious crowd – not unbelievers. They were essentially deceiving the people who WERE seeking God. Thus Jesus’ wrath. Now being God Jesus could pull off righteous anger perfectly – I do the have a whole lot of faith in our ability as Christians to do the same. I can’t think of one occasion where Jesus acted this way with unbelievers…..As you said, He had compassion. Where I believe (just my opinion FWIW) we ought to exercise our attempt to at least call people out is with BELIEVERS who teach any gospel different from what Jesus/Paul taught. These are the ones Jesus went after – because they are deceiving the very ones who are actually interested in finding God.
That’s the thing though; whether these atheists like it or not, they ARE religious. These are people that openly preach against God, deceiving those who would seek Him, as you said. If atheists are coming to a Christian blog to pick a fight, they had best come prepared to defend their position. We don’t have a personal problem with these people, even though we could have plenty of reasons to hate them. They have called us endless profanities, abused us, made all kinds of heinous assumptions about our personal lives and upbringings. We show compassion by still giving them the time of day and entertaining them in continuing the debate. What we mock is less the fool, but more the folly because a philosophy that can’t hold water will be exposed under the harshest criticism.
Very well said @Jasmine!
We’ve been doing Romans at our Church since fall 2015 – so I’m probably hyper-sensitive to many of Paul’s teachings at the moment……Avoiding even the appearance of evil, not causing a brother to stumble due to your freedom in Christ, etc. It’s always hard even if you follow a debate/ blog faithfully to keep up with all the information going back and forth, let alone the nuances. I do appreciate your comment about the emphasis on mocking the folly rather than the fool – sometimes it doesn’t come across that way, but I do believe that is the intent…….If we can deceive even our own hearts it’s no surprise that we can get others intentions messed up. Thanks again for your explanation…..Very clearly worded!
I think one of the keys here is that Wisdom will do the mocking – not me. I also cannot say with any certainty from Scripture whether or not God was glorified by Elijah’s behavior. I do know that I cannot base my behavior on his, because it conflicts with Paul’s teaching to “gently instruct those who oppose themselves” (2Tim:2:25)
That’s true, we don’t know if God was glorified by Elijah’s behavior.
2 Tim 2:25 Christian leaders must use humility even when correcting those who oppose them. This does not mean that there isn’t a time to get tough. Paul did that (1 Corinthians 5) and so did Jesus (Matthew 23). The leaders’ toughness must not be self-serving. If they are rough with others, it should never be because they are acting out of hurt emotions.
I also believe, “those who oppose themselves” is referring to fellow believers.
What I’ve learnt from this discussion is – it’s impossible to give meaningful advice, (even to atheists) without appealing to the goodness of the God they choose to deny.
As another commenter pointed out – atheism cannot solve this guys depression and cannot help him through his divorce.
This was and still is the point of the post. Getting upset because the truth is pointed out is an irrational reaction to have.
As Paul said: am I now your enemy because I tell you the truth.
I agree and stand by the post.
@theancients
Back up a few verses to 2:23,24 and I think it applies to all…….
I would disagree that it is impossible to give meaningful advise as you said. The giving of the advice is the easy part – it is however difficult (impossible) for an an atheist to receive it without God in the equation. Giving away a portion of your income doesn’t work mathematically,logically or in any way that makes sense to an unbeliever, it works because God says to do it and He blesses it. Loving others more than himself could help him with his depression and possibly prevent a divorce – but denying God’s wisdom is what he chose instead. Our job is to speak God’s truth, which is the advise we should be giving – it is a natural reaction to get upset because the truth is pointed out
I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, Tim. The divorced Atheist needs Truth.
However, he has built a wall around himself which prevents Christians from giving him that advice you say (and I agree) he needs. He is actually going out of his way to AVOID Christian counseling, and reaching out to fellow Atheists for something they can’t provide…
We can’t speak God’s truth to Atheists if they’ve got their ears plugged. But, we’ve noticed something interesting happens when we start mocking the foolishness of Atheism.
The Atheists come to us.
A whole party of them have been coming–week after week–for over a year. And, though they get upset when the truth is pointed out, they just keep coming. (I guarantee they are reading right now. Hi, Pastor Mike! Hi, Ark! Hi, Allallt!) 🙂
People who run away from Christian counseling actively seek out JB and his Chrisian friends here–and they tell other Atheists about his blog, too. *laughs* I think that’s interesting, don’t you?
@mrsmcmommy
I do find it interesting, in fact I’ve asked them in the past why they’re here…..If I were truly an “atheist” I’d be water skiing (not like John 😀) or sailing or hiking, not hanging out in a Christian’s blog. I can speculate as to why they are here, some like an argument, (it’s not arguing it’s just contradiction!) but some are wanting to be convinced that Christianity IS the way. I hope we’re giving them an accurate representation is all…..✝️
Agreed.
I hope you’ll continue commenting here, to help us give them a full picture of Christ’s personality. 🙂
When conflict happens between Christians it looks MUCH different than conflict between atheists. The dialogue on this blog is always courteous and respectful until the atheists show up and start flinging profanity and pornography around.
This is a place that doesn’t withdraw from heathen vulgarity. We do not silence their mockery. Instead, we turn their mindless theology back on them. We are the not an echo-chamber of sycophants. In this space, Atheists actually encounter atheism.
I refuse to allow atheists to hold me to a standard they themselves reject. Allallt lecturing me on ‘compassion’ while simultaneously preaching that the universe is without purpose is comedy. It’s HILARIOUS! If laughing at this seems inappropriate to you, then don’t laugh.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ shines a glorious light on the futility of godlessness. Atheism sizzles and boils under the heat of the Truth. And if you can’t take the heat…
But Allallt will be back. He’s still out there lurking because he’s no different than the rest of us. He is attracted to the light.
It’s impossible to give meaningful advice to atheists – whose philosophy is based on meaninglessness.
You keep using the principles of Christianity when the ‘advice seeker’ shuns your principles (at least in theory)…
Which leads back to the whole point of the post – it’s impossible for the atheist to live within the boundaries of atheism.
Here, Allallt is seeking compassion, and all the things he claims Christ teaches – when in this very moment on his blog, he’s stating Christ is a fiction (while writing the date as AD and BC).
That’s the point – what kind of mind are we speaking to.
Sorry @theancients you are correct that giving theistic advice to atheists is impossible.
I forgot to say that I don’t believe there is such a thing as an atheist to begin with. Agnostic OK, but not atheist. Since God has put the knowledge of Himself in each and every one of us then to me giving Biblical advice is never a waste of time. They can plug their ears, stomp their feet, sing lalalalalalala at the top of their voices but truth is they KNOW God exists. The decision for them is what to do with the advice. We don’t get to decide, we’ve been called to give it. They can reject it, us, God, that is their free will, but we must continue to give it……And I’ll add……EXPECT it to have an effect!
🙂
We agree.
I don’t believe in atheism either – which is why I pointed out in my original comment that Allallt only confirms what scripture says – that he is without excuse. (He knows the truth, he simply chooses to reject it – and call upon it when he thinks it suits his purpose).
If God allows an unbeliever to “call me out” using His Word, then perhaps I should be paying attention. At question is not whether or not the “atheist” believes the Scriptures, it is whether or not WE do by living them out. What the atheist doesn’t understand is that our inability to always live out the Scriptures is the precise reason we are in need of a Saviour in the first place. I always thank unbelievers when they point out my times of error as I’m able to apologize and explain that although my desire is to live exactly how a Christian ought to live, that I frequently fall short of that. When I say “you’re right, I ought to be acting the way God intended me too” the dynamic of the conversation changes……..From an argument to an actual conversation.
I feel an unbeliever is truly interested in admonishing a believer in the “spirit of the scriptures” he should … …
Sorry. Can’t think of a reply that makes sense.
Most every angry atheist I know has a history of some kind of religion related abuse in their past–at the hands of another person who was no doubt, “misrepresenting the spirit of the scriptures.” One I know was abused by anCatholic priest. With baggage like that on their hearts, I’m doubtful John’s attitude is contributing to their unbelief or tainting God’s witness.
I always felt that an atheist trying to quote the Bible was like a chimpanzee trying to read Shakespeare.
At first it’s cute then I wish the little guy would just go out and eat a banana.
I recall Jesus calling some religious hypocrites a brood of vipers but I do not recall him calling the lost chimpanzees. I’m not sure He would have, are you?
Mad,
Obviously you were never a fan of comedians like Don Rickles or Sam Kinison.
They really make me laugh.
And Christians like you make me hate myself for laughing so hard at their raunchy humor.
take a look at Matthew 9:11-13. If we look close Jesus had no problem calling those lost “sick”….. even while they were sitting there. I don’t think we do any good by pretending, even with our words, that people without faith in Christ are really “ok”… they are not…
That is certainly a creative interpretation of what I said. They are most definitely not OK!
that is good to hear.
Although you’re making a valid point, that people who discredit the Judeo-Christian God have no legs to stand upon when calling others to be godly, or accusing others of not being godly; I have to side with Allalt here.
Your tack is unseemly. If “we are the only book the unbeliever reads”, what do you think those unbelievers will make of your ethic here? It’s my opinion that you are misrepresenting the spirit of the Scriptures.