It’s been almost 24 hours since my de-conversion.
I’ve run into a problem.
I’m not smarter than I was yesterday.
Not even a little bit.
I was assured that faith is the enemy of rationality.
Faith stands in the way of understanding reality!
Faith made me ‘delusional’ and ‘superstitious’.
So I got rid of faith.
I braced for a torrent of truth to wash over me.
Nothing happened.
Where are my godless allies?
Why haven’t they scrambled to fill my newly opened mind with evidenced based truth?
Christians sometimes give new converts a plate of cookies.
De-converts get nothing!
Maybe I need to ask a specific question.
A question that my former, indoctrinated-self used ‘faith’ to answer.
Here are three questions for which I need scientific, evidence-based answers:
- Should I shoplift items from a store if I’m guaranteed not to get caught?
- Should I tell the truth when it will lead to negative consequences for me?
- Should I assist people who will never be able to assist me in return?
When I was deluded and superstitious, I had answers for all these questions.
I’ve shunned my former indoctrination.
Now I have no idea how to respond.
Please!
Somebody enlighten me.
No faith statements!
I’m not ready to de-de-convert just yet.
121 Responses
I’ll explain – I came to this post because I like to read others writing on atheism and morality. If anything I am always for things that enhance my understanding of things like ethics, morality, etc.
Welcome aboard.
Hey John your de-conversion should make for an interesting topic in May.
Hahaha that’s what I was thinking. John Branyan’s comedy is beyond their understanding.
Gene,
Nearly two million people watched his “Three Little Pigs” piece of classic comedy. The overwhelming majority of the votes are likes. Hmm… guess the guy must be funny, regardless of what one blog poster might say.
Dave
Psalm 126:2 (ESV) – Then our mouth was filled with laughter, and our tongue with shouts of joy; then they said among the nations, “The Lord has done great things for them.”
‘Merica 🙂 lol that was pretty good!!
Maybe this will be beyond you, Gene?
Personally, I think the man was a comedic genius. And his observations on ” God ” were incredibly astute
https://youtu.be/8r-e2NDSTuE
Apparently atheists don’t have senses of humour.
This is very funny. If you don’t laugh maybe you being a Christian don’t have a sense of humour?
https://youtu.be/xcJvkAdydnQ
Ark watching that video for the first time:
You don’t think Lewis Black is funny?
Why would I need to watch that video when I can watch you?
Actually, even skip-scanning it is pretty funny 🙂
Sorry, Arkbuddy, that was a lie. I’ve read a few whoppers from ya already. Plus, ya gotta listen to the podcast in its entirety, no wonder you didn’t find it funny.
I was referring to the first podcast. And no , it really isn’t funny at all.
Arkbuddy! I like it. That explains why he hangs on JB’s every word. Not only does he love JB’s sandwiches. He loves JB.
JB – Arkedummy is your Arkbuddy.
Seems like he’d share those “salient points”. I’m sure he will once he figures them out.
~CQW
I never lie. And I have mentioned before that I have listened to at least one podcast.I skip scanned it.
Like the comedy routine, it was not in the least funny.
You can scour your comments I’m sure?
@Rainy Day Posts
Before you get hopelessly out of your depth, let me help you out …
An excellent post on the topic
https://apistevist.wordpress.com/2017/01/16/is-faith-and-trust-the-same-thing/
In brief ….
Faith is emotional as opposed to trust that is rational
I’m continually disappointed by your attempts to indoctrinate people with your faith.
I de-converted because I envied the sound, evidence-based knowledge you claimed to possess.
Yet, all you give us in the comments are faith statements. The link you provided Rainy is LOADED with faith statements:
“…but one must at least admit that “Faith” is a loaded word that does not always fit the same meaning as “Trust”.
“…The difference of usage between Faith and Trust is this: “religious faith” is a deep certainty, and it needs no evidence.”
“A person of Faith “knows” God exists. In fact, losing one’s Faith is punishable by most cultural deities.”
“… the person of “religious faith” is at a conclusion…no evidence, even empirical, will sway this version of faith to correction.”
And there are many, many more.
I’ve asked a question on this blog to see if this dude can help me stay de-converted.
There is every chance he might actually consider that you are heading the way your father has …
Certainly, you give this impression with every new blog post.
No chance of that. I’ve deconverted. My thoughts are guided by pure rationality.
You should give up faith too!
That’s three. (I’m counting the number of times Ark brings up your dad, before he realizes it has exactly the same effect as bringing up guns around me. Lol.)
Also: we now know Ark was lying when he said he doesn’t listen to the podcast! 😀
Didn’t we talk about my Dad somewhere in the comments? I thought we did.
The doctors informed us 30 years ago that my Dad was bi-polar. We took that diagnosis on faith.
Since my deconversion, I’m inclined to say that there’s nothing wrong with Dad. He, like Ark, is merely the product of evolution.
Also, I learned what an ‘apistevist’ is.
“A person who doesn’t use faith to know things.” It’s like an atheist but more humble. Apistevists are not certain of anything except that there is no certainty.
I mentioned “Bob” in the comments months ago, in letting Ark know that I’m familiar with his diagnosis. But I didn’t reveal that he was a relative at the time.
https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2016/10/04/christians-are-learning-disabled/comment-page-1/#comment-6449
My question is: why do the people who “lack” faith think they’re the ones who get to define it?
When you ask the self-identified FAITHFUL what they mean by the word…? They say faith is the same as trust.
It’s only a big debate in Atheist World.
Yes …sad to say one can definitely see the hereditary mental health problems beginning to shine through.
That’s four! 🙂
I don’t understand what you’re trying to say.
You and I have the same worldview now. We have no mental health problems. We’re fully rational.
Oh, you do have a mental health issue.
Consider your father.
And your daughter too, by the sound of it, and I am not the only one to have noticed either.
It is illogical to assume that my father’s issues are my issues.
It is illogical to conclude that my daughter’s issues are my issues.
It is illogical to expect me to take your accusations on faith when I’ve renounced faith in favor of reason.
You are, according to the evidence, the only person who questions my mental health.
You are also the only one who keeps professing faith.
Common sense, if nothing else, would suggest it would be wise that you at least have yourself diagnosed by a professional, bearing in mind your father’s condition and your daughter’s mental health history.
For one thing, you seem convinced you are a comedian.
You’re blowing your chance to tell my dad what’s true and real and logical. It’s pretty sad.
But as he is suffering likely suffering from mental health issue he would not be able to grasp the salient points.
I suggest that as you are the sane one, you ex+lain it to him?
Sorry… I simply can’t write that with a straight face!
(*rolls eyes*) Aren’t you bored, Ark?
If I want to listen to a man who lives in his own reality, contradicting himself, I can just go visit my grandfather. Is that why your family has you watching soccer and talking to strangers all day?
Are they tired of babysitting you?
I am a comedian. Thousands of testimonies serve as evidence. I can show you the canceled checks.
And I have been checked by a professional. No mental issues.
You, on the other hand, have offered zero evidence for ANY of your claims.
You’re spewing unsubstantiated faith claims.
Ah …so you did at least have a concern over your mental health, then?
Maybe you should ask for a second opinion?
Based on the way you run your blog it would be a good idea. You certainly come across as bi-polar.
You are the only person who thinks I’m bi-polar. Again, without evidence.
Seeking a second opinion would present a dilemma. Which opinion is the ‘correct’ opinion?
I think I’m finished with this conversation. You are exactly the kind of religious zealot I left behind when I de-converted.
Sorry there Ark…
But faith and trust are synonyms. So says the dictionary. Faith does not involve emotions by definition.
There are as many people who say they have faith in science as there are who say they trust in Christ.
The main Greek word used in Scripture is πίστις. In modern Greek, faith is πίστη (piste) and trust is εμπιστοσύνη (empistosuni), with the same root word for faith.
The Strong’s Greek says thusly:
pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis’-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.
The Dave’s English continues thusly:
In Albanian, Amharic, Cebuano, Gujarati, Kazakh, Kurdish, Kyrgyz, Marathi, Samoan, Sinhala, Sundanese, Tamil, Uzbek, and Vietnamese, the words are identical. In many other languages, the words share the same roots, since some languages (like English) use the word “faith” as a noun, while trust can be both a noun and verb. We can say “I trust you”. but not “I faith you” to be proper. You would have to say “I have faith in you” to make a normal sounding sentence.
Hope this helps you be more accurate.
Dave
Proverbs 3:5-6 (ESV) – Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.
http://img.pandawhale.com/post-58475-Morgan-Freeman-hes-right-you-k-9kKd.jpeg
The problem is … Dave , that you are attempting to apply the same criteria to the known as you are to the unknown.
And, of course, like all words, their usage and meaning develop as time passes.
Thus, you have faith that if you are a good boy you will go to heaven.
Alternatively, you have faith that the Lake Tiberius Pedestrian actually turned water into wine … cured dandruff, drove demons into pigs without so much as a second thought for the welfare of the pig farmer, I might add, or that he rose from the dead, even though there is absolutely no supporting evidence whatsoever.
You have to have faith Dave otherwise you might as well kick your religion into touch.
You should anyway, but this is another matter.
Now, you trust that the aircraft you fly in will not likely crash.
And remember, the first example is based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever and of course contradicts all known laws of science and believed only because you are indoctrinated into the Christian religion.
On the other hands, the aircraft flying is based on millions and millions of hours of physical testing to reduce the risk of the aircraft falling from the sky to as close to zero as possible, and because you know this you take the risk of flying and trust the engineers etc have done their jobs …. based on all the safeguards, and laws in play and also experience.
Oh, and a quick heads up: quoting scripture to an atheist to try to make a point is probably the funniest most ridiculous thing you could do!
Hope this helps you be more honest.
Best.
Ark
Ark,
You can’t selectively try to redefine words and think that makes a point. Doesn’t work.
I have not been dishonest in my post.
I have faith that the pilot was not drinking before the flight. I trust in the veracity of Scripture. I have faith that the government took the correct amount of taxes from my check. I trust my family to be there in time of need.
They are synonymous. I have already proven it linguistically in a plethora of languages. Trust my research. Have faith in it. Just as I have faith that you will not back down and admit that you erred in your assertion that faith needs to be emotional.
Study the original Greek and see what it says. If naught else, it will be a nice academic exercise.
You do have faith in God, but you just hate Him. I pray for you, as you seem to be the one of the unbelieving group who wants to hear that one thing that will convince you. Stick around. Listen and let the Lord continue to work on your heart.
Dave
Matthew 11:29 (ESV) – Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
LOL!
Yes.
I, too, have faith in Ark’s pride.
John,
I am so sorry to hear of your deconversion and rejection of all things faith.
Life will be so fearful without faith. Let me demonstrate!
Though I am non-petite, I do not check the structural integrity of my desk chair before I sit on it. I have grown to have faith that my chair will hold my plentiful frame. (Though I have a story of a time that a chair failed me in a mall food court… my faith was misplaced!)
Each time you take a breath, you will need to use a scientific measuring device to ensure that with your next breath, there will indeed still be enough oxygen out there for you to survive. Else, you are showing faith. (Though after a long flight of stairs, I do have my doubts about sufficient oxygen around)
When you buy a burger at McDonalds (though Lord only knows why people do that), you will need to have it examined to see if it is indeed beef in there, rather than some poisonous patty of perilous paraphernalia (which is actually probably true).
Indeed, when you get out of bed in the morning, beware! What assurance have you that gravity will be applying to you this fine day? (Or perhaps you will wake on the ceiling)
A life without faith is a life of worry, doubt and stress.
I can’t wait until you un-de-convert, and embrace faith once again as a way of life.
Dave
Hebrews 11:1 (ESV) – Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
P.S. – Oh, no! I forgot to talk about faith in Christ amongst my demonstration! 😉
True story: I just read a post by a woman on Facebook, looking for a fetal doppler (the device doctor’s use to listen to the baby’s heartbeat) because she wanted to be able to listen at home.
She has been through several miscarriages, and does not have much faith that this pregnancy will continue… :/
Everything you said about anxiety, doubt, and stress is very true.
hahaha oh my! I’ve been away all week! But I’ve sure been thinking of you guys, praying for you. Still hilarious, even though you De-converted, whatever that means. Lol.
Gene,
It means that John has gone to using all DC devices rather than AC.
Dave
1 Corinthians 4:20 (ESV) – For the kingdom of God does not consist in talk but in power.
Amen, Dave! More power! I’m wondering, though, how many de-converts there actually are. My Jesus says He will come after us personally when we wander. If some one says they de-converted, that’s apostasy, and pretty serious business. Mhmm. Of all these people who called themselves Christians, were they REALLY converted in the first place?
“But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. And I and My Father are one.” John 10:26:30
“Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the loving God. ” Hebrews 10:29-31
*living
I think of stumbled into a private party. Let me nonchalantly back out.
Patrick,
Oh, don’t leave. It is a “come as you are” party. Crashers always welcome.
Dave
Acts 26:5 (ESV) – They have known for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that according to the strictest party of our religion I have lived as a Pharisee.
Props to Amanda for liking Whose Line is it Anyway. That show is a riot. XD
JB would be great on that show.
I’m kind of new here (and a little lost)
I don’t know if my comment is on topic, but here it is.
Faith seems to be told off as something that is wrong. Something without facts behind it. Faith is the mental act of putting trust in something, even if it doesn’t have facts to back it up. That’s kind of the point of it. Faith has nothing to do with religion. It is something that is in the minds of all humans, whether they know it or not. If I wake up in the morning, I have faith that the water will come out of my sink. If my friend tells me that he has my money he owes me, and will pay me tomorrow, I have faith that he will. I trust those things.
If you are given all of the facts that dirt is made of spit (Totally an awesome example) you will have faith that it is. Now your faith at that point will be very apparent, but you still will have faith.
The idea that faith is something for christians, and not atheists, is wrong. God didn’t say, oh you have faith in me, now come to heaven! I can also have faith that there is no God. It doesn’t matter. It’s if I follow that believe and let it lead my life that makes it important.
Again, I don’t know if this comment is important, but thanks for the chance to speak. I have faith that you won’t be mad at me for this…
Buckle up, Rainy!
You’re gonna get taken to task for suggesting that atheists have faith too!
You’re new around here so I’ll bring you up to speed:
The atheists have no faith. They only believe in stuff that has evidence. So they don’t believe water will come out of their sink until they twist the handle.
Atheism itself is not a belief. It’s a non-belief. Don’t ask for clarification because only mentally unstable people do that.
Arkenaten says a lot of stuff.
John Zande is super smart and wrote a book that has been read by less people than are required to play Bridge.
Tildeb knows everything about reality and has the power to read Christian’s minds.
Pastor Mike (KIA) used to know everything but since he gave up Christianity, he knows even more!
I’ve recently de-converted (like yesterday) so I’m no longer interested in anything except FACTS!
FACTS! FACTS! FACTS!
You can believe me when I say I don’t have faith anymore.
If you believe in the facts, then you have faith. Faith isn’t always intentional. It mostly is subconscious. If you ended up turning that knob to get the water out, you have faith.
This post will help you catch up, too: https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2016/10/05/meet-the-heathens/
Also, this glossary of frequently-used terms: https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2017/01/14/a-godless-lexicon/
🙂
Welcome!
Peaches,
You think maybe Carmen can come around and tell Rainy why he’s not thinking clearly? I miss her winky faces.
After you shouted for Tildeb’s help, I was just going to link to her comment from last year, when she “urged” you to “pick him” as a mentor.
😉 😉 😉 😉
Ah, look! Here it is!
Good ol’ Carmen.
https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2016/06/23/im-not-broken-im-sinful/comment-page-1/#comment-1968
That’s a lot to read… What is this for?
No pressure! You don’t have to read them…
It’s just some of the background on the Atheists we’ve gotten to know around here. The history helps explain why JB has suddenly “deconverted.” 🙂
OOOOOOH! Ok. Thanks. I saw the first bit if it, and was wondering why I was supposed to read about these people.
Thanks!
Believing in facts requires faith?
That’s the kind of thing I used to say before I de-converted. It still seems reasonable to me but that’s because I’ve only been a de-convert for a couple of days. I’ll have to let somebody who’s been a non-believer for longer than me explain what’s wrong with your logic.
I’m sure you’re deluded…I just can’t explain why.
Where is Tildeb?!!! I need him!
Please find someone to prove me wrong. Let me know when you do.
I remember Carmen fondly as Baby Bird.
~CQW
She’s left the nest apparently.
JB –
I thought Arkedummy and you had become close friends since your de-conversion. Is “dickhead” code for friend in the empty fulfilling world of atheism?
~CQW
I’m not sure where our relationship stands. He is starting to annoy me with his appeals to faith though.
Why doesn’t KIA get treated like this?
Arkedummy obviously didn’t consider Kia to be a (dickhead) friend. I guess you can take it as a kind gesture.
~CQW
He’s firing more faith statements at Jasmine as we speak.
I wish Tildeb or JZ or even Carmen would speak up and bring steer this conversation in a rational, scientific, reality-based direction.
Awkward.
This is exactly what I asked you a couple of posts ago, Ark. Still have no answer.
Really? Amazing, isn’t it?
I think I also responded with something similar to this: ”Whatever evidence has satisfied you will satisfy me.”
And you still have not answered …
It’s an improv game, they play on Whose Line Is It Anyway… You try to have a conversation by doing nothing but asking questions. The first one to make a statement rather than asking a question loses.
You’d be great at it, Ark! You NEVER answer questions, and you always volley them right back to the asker.
You should audition for the show.
But you lose when you say, “You’re a Dickhead”…right?
“Do you know you’re a dickhead?”
“Did I SAY you were a dickhead?”
“Can you provide evidence that I said you were a dickhead?”
“Oh, don’t you know the difference between an insult and a character assessment?”
“What were we talking about again?”
I will try to answer most of Jasmine’s questions, where I am able.
Your father, on the other hand, is a disingenuous simpleton.
I generally treat him with all the respect he deserves.
Gotcha.
Indeed!
Yeah, and I told you. You weren’t satisfied.
I wasn’t satisfied? Not satisfied with what?
My answer. I can see what God has done in my life, the peace I receive from knowing Him, the fruit of living by His words. Apparently the satisfaction I have in my life is not satisfying to you.
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/TheCrimsonQuarterWit/cricket%20connect%20the%20dots_zpsvzh7indw.png
I have no answer for question 2. I think the answer for question 3 depends on if assisting someone else means they will taste better when you are next inclined to try to eat them.
If I’m eating them, then they are benefitting me.
Science.
To be fair, there is the “try to eat them” thing that must happen first, an activity which may not succeed. This makes the judgement about assisting, balanced against some future prospect of benefit (an assumption itself because there is no way to know before doing so and observing the result to see if it is actually beneficial, consider poisons or the unhygenic) much more in need of rational decision.
For question one, after some reflection, I think the answer is that in order to shoplift, you, a human being, would introduce an unnecessary change in the environment. We all know that when any humans change the environment for any reason except to preserve endangered species in their current habitat, it’s bad. Therefore, nature argues against your proposed activity.
Unless I’m mistaken, Brian, you have not de-converted so your ‘answer’ is predicated on faith.
There is no such thing as ‘bad’ in nature.
I have not de-converted, and I’ll concede your point, even though it requires me to ignore a long tradition of PETA orthodoxy.
Oh, and for completeness, nature argues against you buying the items even more vociferously, but that was obviously not your question.
I am stridently opposed to words like vociferously…
My answers to your three questions:
Should I shoplift items from a store if I’m guaranteed not to get caught? On your conscience be it. How would you like it if someone stole something from your home and you didn’t catch them?
Should I tell the truth when it will lead to negative consequences for me? In some cases you cannot avoid doing so. It might hurt a bit but you’re a better person for it.
Should I assist people who will never be able to assist me in return?
Sure – I’ve lived by that principle most of my life and it’s gotten me a lot in return.
Yet you continually assert that it requires faith to be an atheist.
That was the old me. Before I de-converted. I see now how faith is completely unnecessary.
Rational, evidence-based facts are all that I will accept moving forward.
Oh, good. Then part of the New Rationality you and enlightenment you have so recently acquired is for you to acknowledge how much an indoctrinated Dickhead you were and also it would be nice if you ran at least one post chastising your indoctrinated daughter.
YES!!! Please write a post chastising me, Dad. lol.
I don’t understand how chastening you is rational. Neither do I understand what admitting my ‘Dickhead indoctrination’ will accomplish.
I’ve just renounced faith. That doesn’t mean I BELIEVE something. I am a non-believer. Chastening you would require me to BELIEVE you are doing something wrong.
*shrugs*
I don’t know.
I’m still a believer in Truth, so I can’t help you out.
You’ll just have to repeat after Ark (or hope Tildeb or JZ returns to feed you lines).
I think the first bit of sound advice might involve handguns ….
Just a thought.
Side note:
Violetwisp and Truthspew. Do you know them? Where are the new commenters coming from all of a sudden?
Never encountered Truthspew before. Just popped over to his blog for a squizz.
I figured they were being sent here from your place…
I was about to ask, “How many terrible philosophers are you stashing over there?”
My place! Sheesh! Do you actually read my blog these days?
I take pictures….
I’ll take your word for it, on good faith.
You can take it on evidence…. simply pop over and have a look.
I think there are two posts (?) that have any sort of religious content.
No, thanks. 🙂
I agree, no thanks necessary.
Appreciating photography might just be above your meagre intellect.
I’m in the process of acquiring enlightenment. Ditching faith was the first step. Now, I need to replace my indoctrination with rational, scientific facts!
Go ahead and answer my questions. That will help me gain understanding.
If you have ditched faith then you already know the answers . or at least should be showing signs of basic awareness of these ethical issues.
If you are unsure then I suggest you read up on the basics of human evolution.
Let me know how you get on …
You are giving me FAITH STATEMENTS!
I will not tolerate faith statements! I demand evidence. Don’t try to indoctrinate me with your religion!
What evidence would satisfy you?
Whatever evidence has satisfied you will satisfy me.
Again, the three questions I asked were answered by my faith before I de-converted. My eyes are open. My faith is gone.
Just tell me how you know ‘human evolution’ answers my questions.
Our regular readers are going to be reminded of the “Wise Teacher” conversation…
https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2016/09/08/will-there-be-guns-in-heaven/comment-page-1/#comment-4391
Buckle up!
*Crickets, crickets*
Wait! You mean we’ve had this conversation before!?
…maybe this time it will make sense to me since I’m no longer indoctrinated.
Last time, he tried asking YOU a bunch of questions…and then told you to do your own research.
(Link: https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2016/09/08/will-there-be-guns-in-heaven/comment-page-1/#comment-4408)
Here’s hoping he is a little more forthcoming with his wisdom this time.
I think you have to help me out a little and be a tad more specific, Brunyon.
You must appreciate there are over 30,000 atheist cults and we all interpret evidence differently ..
no hold on… that’s Christianity, dammit!
Christ, I get so confused.
Why not try standing naked in the high street hollering ”Fuck Jesus!”
That will give you a quick dose of reality, I guarantee.
Fabulous idea!
For a dose of reality, stand naked in the street, screaming profanities…
Go ahead, Dad.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/df/d9/3b/dfd93baca06a6af3103d3316113105a8.jpg
That doesn’t seem scientific at all.
That’s just your leftover Christian Indoctrination talking…
I’m not saying nude shouting won’t work. I’d just need to read a peer-reviewed paper before I tried it. I can’t just take Ark’s suggestion on faith.
I don’t see the logic in nude shouting.
Are you going to be able to help me or do I need to ask someone else?