Have you heard the one about the televangelists and their planes?
Two super-rich preachers having a conversation about how a private jet can improve your prayer life.
It’s hilarious!
Until you realize they’re not joking.
As it slowly dawned on me that they were serious…
…a cringe crept over my entire body.
…mere mortals cannot view the video without curling into a fetal position.
Outrageous!
I asked out loud, “Why would anyone send money to these shysters?”
And was struck by an answer…
…because these men have touched their lives in some way.
“That’s insane! They’re hucksters! Hypocrites!”
…and you know the condition of their hearts?
“Nobody needs a jet to perform ministry!”
…how many cars do you have?
“Huh?”
…how many pairs of pants?
“That’s different. Pants aren’t planes!”
…What are a couple of Lear jets to the One who owns the cattle on a thousand hills?
“It’s so extravagant!”
…are you suggesting that God is too generous?
“No! But Jesus didn’t have a jet plane!”
…He didn’t have three cars, a house or more than one set of clothes either.
“Again with the pants? I’m not rich!”
…in comparison to whom?
“Those guys! The television preachers!”
…compared to the guys in Malawi, you’re George Soros.
“Yeah! George Soros! Why does God let him have so much money?”
…it’s easier for camels to go through needles than a rich man…
“I know! I know! But I still think being a billionaire would be sweet!”
…so you’re a little envious?
“No! But if I was a billionaire, I’d do good things with my money!”
…do you have to be a billionaire to do good things with money?
“Can we stop this internal dialogue now?”
…that’s up to you.
“…”
…go on. Say what you’re thinking…
“Copeland said planes are full of demons!”
…you act pretty demonic when you’re in the middle seat on a 4-hour flight.
“But those television guys are preaching bad doctrine!”
…what makes it bad?
“It’s different from mine!”
…do you think God uses everyone who is willing to serve?
“Yes. But…wait…you’re trying to trap me!”
…does God use broken, flawed, doctrinally challenged people?
“Crap! I knew you were going there!”
…is it possible that somebody learned about Jesus from these preachers?
“You’re starting to annoy me.”
…This is just a stream of consciousness. Take it for what it’s worth.
“Well, I’m not sending money to Ken Copeland!”
…that’s fine. You don’t need to.
“And I think Jesse Duplantis is a flake!”
…so don’t watch his program.
“I’m upset now. I’m going to get ice cream.”
…most people in the world can’t afford ice cream.
“Please shut up!”
33 Responses
http://pbgrace.org/fleece.htm
Oh, dear. Kevin, I watched that video. By the way, I don’t lock my doors at night. Never have.
As I figured, Zacharias’ mumbo-jumbo seemed to indicate that without (a) god, we’d all be killing each other. Ummm. . . let’s see. Americans, with 70% claiming to be Christian, seem to be doing a good job of doing just that. The prison population in the US – what percentage of those people claim to be Christian? No doubt, it’s quite high. Interestingly enough, I have read stats about atheists in US prisons; very low percentage. So I really shake my head when I hear that sort of thing. Not to mention the stats from countries that enjoy very good standards of living (higher than the US or Canada, for instance). Take Sweden – eight out of ten people are either not religious or atheists. Switzerland – no state religion. Netherlands? More atheists than theists. Are the people in these countries killing/raping/looting at random? Of course not. That tired old maxim, “without (a) god no one would have any morals” is just that. I could go on, but I’m sure you get the picture.
Kevin is apparently not thinking either, Carmen. My guess is he’s a theist.
I think you’re correct. Ravi’s ‘mumbo-jumbo’ claimed that without a god we’d all be killing each other. But it’s even worse than that! The mumbo-jumbo suggests that without a god we wouldn’t even know what ‘good’ is! He’s saying we wouldn’t even know we shouldn’t kill each other! Can you believe it?
In Ravi’s mumbo-jumbo are questions like, “Why is it wrong to kill each other?”. He’s trying to trick atheists into admitting that morality is an absolute truth rather than just a personal preference. Theists believe that God determines what’s “good” and what’s “evil”. They believe that God built a sense of morality into people (some call it a conscience).
If you were to tell Ravi that right and wrong just ‘comes from inside’ he would ask, ‘from inside who’? (He’s annoying like that.) And you would say, ‘from inside each person’. And he would ask, ‘even people who want to kill you?’ And of course not THOSE people! Morality comes from inside people who are ‘good’ and everybody is basically good except for the people who aren’t . It’s not complicated but Ravi sure makes it so!
Carmen –
You should challenge Ravi to a debate. That would be fun. I bet you’d win.
That is so cool that you don’t lock your doors. I always figured not locking them could invite killing/raping/looting (trouble) at random. But how can we say that killing/raping/looting (especially at random) is wrong? It sounds prejudiced (I’m pointing at myself – not you). I’m sure killers, rapists, and looters have feelings too – and now we’ve alienated them. Perhaps they have good reasons? Perhaps our labeling has made them defensive? Who can say? Killers, rapists, and looters are survivors (that kill, rape, and loot the weak). Their survival obviously furthers the survival of the fittest and helps us to evolve closer and closer to perfection – which is good for sure (You can’t deny that). So killing/raping/looting (even at random) is good. And that is how “we all know the things that are best for society.” I get it now.
I’ve read that 98% of all stats are made up. However – the following stat is true.
In Sweden, 8 out of 10 people believe they’re already in Heaven.
Well …………….I need to go ask your Savior and mine for forgiveness for each of us and all of us. And then – shake the dust from my feet.
Kevin
Well, Kevin. I think you really should be trying to shake the cobwebs from your head. .. 😉
Kevin –
Ravi Zacharias – as an apologist, he is a man who has much to say and says nothing; he loves the sound of his own voice. Not impressed with that man AT ALL.
Carmen,
I was actually going for the opposite. If you’re interested I’ll explain, let me know.
Meanwhile I’m over here laughing at the absurd amounts of sarcasm that are just flying over your head. Nice work, John. Thanks for the laughs.
In reference to your post, I love this perspective. No one sees these people’s hearts, no one sees the millions of dollars they give away, or the time they sacrifice for the sake of others in order to help people. I believe the Copeland’s ministry is doing a lot in Texas now after the tornado, helping to clean up wreckage. Money is a useful tool if used correctly.
And hey, who are we to judge the falleness of another human? We’ve never been millionaires. Who knows how we’d spend it?
Oh, and p.s. – I was the one who challenged you. But there are some who just cannot think outside the religious box. 🙁
Oh that’s right! It was you!
I didn’t even realize I was still thinking inside my religious box! It’s so hard to purge prejudice out of the thought process.
I’ll keep working on it. Maybe I’ll be able to abandon the myth of faith and accept the scientific fact that morality comes from myself. Until then, I gotta keep asking questions.
For what it’s worth, John – you are one of those people I see as just simply being a nice guy. You don’t need religion. Your goodness comes through in your comments. I wouldn’t be spending this much time typing if I didn’t think you were worth it. 🙂
Believe it or not, I have been reorganizing my Craft Room today . .. 🙂 (Christmas crafting/sewing blitz destroyed the space!)
Carmen,
Define “best for society.” You may find this challenges your entire paradigm. No YouTube links or websites, just think about what it is that you really believe.
Or not, it’s up to you.
We all know the things that are best for society, Jeff. I think I know where you are going with this. You want me to list positive aspects like, ‘being kind to our neighbours’, ‘helping the poor’, etc. Then you get to come back and say, “All the things that are in the bible – and that’s where all that came from!”
Sorry, but I don’t think we need any book to guide or command us. Simply speaking, good comes from within, not from without. In a nutshell, I’ve believed for quite some time that man made god(s); not the other way ’round.
Ravi Zacharias would ask, “Do you lock your doors at night?”
It’s a pickle some days! I think they are nuts most days, and I rarely listen to them. BUT, I know there has been life changing ministry from their obedience. The plane thing? I think that conversation was goofy, but I wonder how much work gets done faster with a private plane? After all, Harrison Ford uses one to get burgers. Who really cares? Aren’t we focusing on the wrong thing? Again? Christians are the poster children for ADHD. “We are reaching the world for Jesu…Oh look! Social Media!!”
“But those television guys are preaching bad doctrine!”
…what makes it bad?
“It’s different from mine!”
Okay, now yer meddlin’.
(Good stuff.)
Trust me, Darrin. It stung to write this one…
OH, and John – here’s a piece that illustrates what the ‘good’ in religion has done for us in the past year –
http://www.salon.com/2016/01/03/religious_delusions_are_destroying_us_nothing_more_than_man_made_contrivances_of_domination_and_submission/
It was in Salon yesterday. .
WOW! That’s pretty powerful stuff!
Out of curiosity, do you think this is ALL that religion has done for us in the past year or is there the possibility that there have been altruistic efforts in the name of ‘God’?
I think there are people who BELIEVE they are doing good for (a) god, but in my opinion, people do good because they’re just nice people. . I’ve felt that way for awhile. I think it has absolutely nothing to do with whether one believes in the supernatural or not. You’re either nice or not nice. Most of us are nice. 🙂
OH, and I don’t think you need Dawkins or Harris to tell you why people behave positively without an invisible friend. We’re social creatures and society works best if we’re pleasant; very simple. Even I can figure that out. . I mean, what do we tell children who are misbehaving around others? We say, “No one wants to play with a meanie!”
Okay.
I’m still confused. Are you suggesting that atheists are nice because that’s what’s good for society? I get why atheists don’t care about an ancient book. But why should an atheist care about society?
John, you’ve got ME shaking my head.
Why WOULDN’T atheists care about society? Do you know the definition of the word, atheist? They don’t believe in god(s). Period. That’s it. That says absolutely nothing about anything else. I asked you above – why would a person’s character be based on the tales in an ancient book and/or belief in an imaginary friend, as opposed to the things they DO?
You didn’t answer any questions…
Religious people care about others because an ancient book tells them to do so.
Atheists don’t have a book to tell them to be nice. So why be nice?
. .. and you’re not reading, John. Or you don’t accept the answers I have put forward. Are you THAT single-minded that you believe that ONLY the commands in a book could make people do good things?? Are you THAT indoctrinated? We are social animals, John. We figure out very early in life (the vast majority of us) that being nice brings rewards. . . it’s innate, John. Good promotes good. We don’t need a book to tell us that. We never did.
Recently, I was challenged to THINK, really THINK on another blog. Tragically, this is what the process of thinking looks like for me.
I’ve not stated that ONLY the commands in a book make people do good. I thought that’s what you were suggesting when you asserted that we don’t need a book to tell us to be nice.
I need some kind of standard in order to determine what is ‘good’ behavior. Or do you believe that ‘good’ is relative and is up to each individual to decide?
I give up, John. If I have to tell you what is good, then perhaps you NEED an ancient book that was written for illiterate goat-herders and shepherds; the one that was written before we knew anything scientific about the workings of our brains and how much it explains about behaviour. 🙁
You are leaving me adrift in my ignorance. How am I supposed to reply to the religious mumbo-jumbo that will certainly be hurled at me?
The religious people are going to ask me what science has to say about right and wrong. I have no response.
The religious people are going to ask me how to prove that right and wrong are functions of the brain. I have no response.
Finally, the religious folks will ask me how goat-herders and shepherds could use a book if they were illiterate. I have no response.
So much thinking yielding so few answers.
John, I offered to send you a list of blogs – people who’ve wrestled with the same questions you’ve got now. Perhaps you didn’t get it – I wrote it on your ‘About’ page, I think. I’ve been doing the questioning thing for about four years now so I am a little further ahead in what I’ve come to believe. Don’t be discouraged; you were this long indoctrinated, it’ll take you awhile to find your way clear. You might want to know that I regularly correspond with several dozen people and most of them were quite religious for a loooong time – two of them are ordained ministers. One is still in the pulpit as he can’t seem to find another line of work – he’s over fifty. Again, I can send you a list of people who have blogs and question – really question – what they’ve learned as they intellectually look at religion. Since the explosion of the internet, people are ‘leaving the faith’ in droves. I have four children – all brought up going to church – all are ‘Nones’. Once you start to unravel the myth, it loses its power.
Speaking of those illiterate goat herders and shepherds “before we knew anything scientific” … who taught them this kind of junk non-science?
Job 38:16
Isaiah 40:22
Springs in the ocean? Circle of the Earth? Whatever. In today’s world of perfect science – we can all agree that there are no springs in the ocean AND that the Earth is square and flat.
Kevin
Makes you wonder if Joyce Meyers, Joel Osteen, Eddie Long, et al. ever read the scripture about widows, orphans, and the downtrodden . . . there’s millions making bank off Je$u$, John – it pay$ to tell people exactly what they want to hear. (and make shit up)
Indeed. Also makes me wonder how Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, et al. would explain why people care for widows, orphans and the downtrodden apart from a scriptural mandate. If there is no God, what’s wrong with spending all my money on myself?
Jesus, John. Do you REALLY think people need an ancient book to tell them to be nice to each other? And WHY, precisely, would it follow that people would be completely self-indulgent without (a) god?? And you DO realize that there are secular organizations devoted to good works?
*shake head, shake head*
You are not following my point, Carmen.
Of course I don’t think people need an ancient book to tell them to be nice. Atheists don’t follow an ancient book and yet they’re nice (sometimes). I don’t understand why.
An ancient book tells mankind to care for widows and orphans. So I’m trying to figure out – why do atheists care for orphans? Why are there secular organizations devoted to good works?
*shrug shoulders, shrug shoulders*