The following is not scripture! Any resemblance to any translation of the Word of God is completely intentional.
1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as is typical of celebrities, athletes, and politicians, that someone is an open adulterer.
2 You have become arrogant and have no shame instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3 Though I don’t attend services in your building, I have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little yeast spreads into the whole lump of dough? Your “Judgement Free Zone” is fertile soil for wickedness.
7 Clean out the old yeast so that you may be a new loaf of bread. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed so you can be free from wickedness.
8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old yeast, nor with the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with the bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. Neither should he be given a position of leadership, is this not obvious?
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? A “judgement free zone” can be a casino or a strip club but it cannot be the church.
13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
29 Responses
Greetings all,
This is a semantic point but in order to reconcile JB and IB, worth making. I’m guessing that IB, like me, has been taught that Shame is like arrogance in that it is self centered. It is focused on your sin and not at all on the God you have sinned against or his law you have broken. Conviction is like shame in the sense that you feel bad because you have done wrong, but instead of wallowing in yourself you are driven to seek forgiveness and to work for restoration.
So I think this is one of those times when it’s good to say, “how are you using that word?” Because I don’t get the sense that JB and Peaches want these people to simply hate themselves forever, or for their church to simply gang up and shovel hate on them for the purpose of making them depressed. But perhaps they can explain for themselves what they mean. I just suspect that JB and IB are actually in agreement.
God bless you all my friends!
Put yourself in the shoes of the ex-wife. Imagine your spouse brought another person into your bed. Imagine catching them together (which she did). Imagine your spouse filing for divorce despite your being willing to forgive. Imagine the spouse leaving the church and becoming worship leader at another church across town. Imagine the spouse posting pictures of himself kissing the new woman. Imagine the church people “liking” the pictures and celebrating the relationship as “God’s plan”.
What do you think your spouse should be feeling if the Spirit of God was the primary influence in their life?
I think they should be ashamed of themselves. I think they should be disgusted with their choices. But I think we all agree that self loathing is not the desired outcome. If these people publicly stated how horrible they felt for what has been done to the prior wife, and they sincerely meant it, such that we all believed they felt bad, but they just plodded on toward their next ill-gotten marriage, I don’t think anyone would be satisfied. I think you, and many others, want that feeling of shame to move them to ACT to repair the damages and turn away from the poor choices. I think to you, shame should naturally move a person to repentance and wanting to repair what they broke. But I think the argument above was a semantic one- not because anyone disagrees with you here, but because some of us have been taught that “shame” is merely self loathing, which is ultimately as selfish as pride. In the book, The Little Prince, there is a drunk. The Little Prince asks him why he drinks, and the drunk replies that he drinks to forget that he is ashamed. The boy asks him what he is ashamed of, and the drunk replies , “Of Drinking!”
He had shame, but no conviction, no repentance. So I think this is what some people hear when they hear you in favor of shame. They don’t hear you saying that we should repent and repair. They hear you saying, “I only wish these people would hate themselves. That’s all I want.” And I don’t believe that’s what you want at all. I just think that’s where the disconnect happened.
Sometimes people use the same words in Very different ways. That’s why there are Mormons.
I understand. Thanks for spelling it out. Shame for the sake of shame is not what I was suggesting.
The issue I am addressing is people using shame in the opposite manner as the drunk. Essentially, “There’s no shame in being drunk, Jesus is Lord!”
Shame is like pain. It helps you know when you’re off course. Suggesting Christians shouldn’t feel shame is like suggesting we shouldn’t feel pain. Apparently, I didn’t communicate clearly. That happens to me a lot! So for the record: Christ takes away the pain (and shame) of sin.
Bryan’s last sentence = hilarious. 😂
Thanks for adding that Bryan, you expressed what I was trying to say in my own comment. Should have used that “semantic” word myself!
My first response re the mistress’s bragging that she won’t fail like the abandoned wife did, was to laugh and say “yeah – bet me!” Keep in mind, little girl, that whatever he has done WITH you, he will eventually do TO you – all you are doing is creating a “job opening” for the next mistress that he’ll cheat on you with.
It doesn’t sound like the church they attend is following the proper procedure for dealing with this through Matthew 18:15-20. Funny how at the same time this was unfolding at their church, out here in Reno NV my amazing pastor at Harvest Family Fellowship, Steve Hadley, was bringing a powerful message on that very subject. We are working our way through 1 and 2 Corinthians, which will probably take a year. I’m profoundly grateful to have a pastor who teaches verse by verse. If you have an hour, here is Pastor Steve’s message on “When to Break Fellowship”. http://harvestreno.org/messages/2018-07-15
Interesting conversation. I think JB and IB both have valid points. The shame in Hebrews 12 that Jesus despised was the humiliation or disgrace of the cross. There was nothing more humiliating in the Roman world than crucifixion. We, likewise, should feel no shame for our past when we’ve come to Christ.
HOWEVER, in my view, there’s a big difference between feeling shame for dishonorable conduct, which is what anyone with an once of moral conviction should feel when they do something wicked or morally wrong, and shaming people in order to control them. The former shows we still have a conscience and it should lead us to repentance; the latter is used to bully or control people to behave the way we want them to behave.
So, I will confront and even plead with someone who deserts his wife and children to satisfy his own selfish desires, but I will extend grace to someone who’s marriage has failed and he seeks forgiveness and transformation, even restoration, if possible. Shaming the latter person would be wrong.
John and IB, perhaps some of the language we use a lot in our work might help this because I actually see where you both are coming from. We really like the word conviction a lot. As in, the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sinful state, and we come to understand our need for salvation. From this flows repentance(as a change of mind regarding our state) and further repentance upon salvation(as we then turn away from our sin.) Once salvation occcurs, we should no longer worry about guilt( in the sense of eternity,), but certainly should feel convicted when we later sin again, which of course we will. Sometimes the power of that conviction can be crushing, as it should be when we again wrong the God who so kindly saved us from the eternal penalty of it. A bit of pain never hurts, so to speak.
He despised OUR shame. We despise our shame. It’s the guilt we feel when we shame our Father. When we shame Jesus. A fellow brother exhorting his brother to stop sinning should ignite guilt, otherwise your conscious is calloused.
“Snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear- hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh. “ Jude 23
I think this thread sum up why I keep objecting to this theme. Kia is clearly engaging in shaming and harassment and should probably just be punched in the head. He is also judging.
Our judging as Christians must look different then the judging that pagans do. So it must be heavily infused with love, grace, and restoration, not condemnation and shaming.
Shame as a form of behavioral control is one of the worst tools to use, because for the most part you’re either going to just create an environment of secrets and toxic shame or else outright rebellion.
Shame is a natural response to the realization that you have behaved badly. Without shame, you don’t know you’re wrong.
Sorry John. We’re in complete disagreement here. Jesus went to the cross despising the shame and He was sin free and blameless. Shame is often a tool of the enemy, not a sign you have done something wrong.
It is always grace that convinces me I have behaved badly, never shame.
Where did you get the idea that Jesus despised the shame of the cross?
I’ve met shameless people…
It’s not a good place to be.
I understand why unbelievers want to keep churches from “judging.”
What I don’t understand is why BELIEVERS don’t care about wives who have been abandoned and remain single while their husbands make plans to remarry.
I recall just such a case among us, Amanda. A friend in fact, just turned his back on his family and walked away. I talked, and counseled, and it got very heated. Sadly, he stuck to his position and soon had a new girlfriend, while his wife and two sons tried to get by. That ended our friendship, as well as his fellowship with us.
Yikes. :/
I get that being part of a family is hard. Sacrificing is hard. All of us want to run away at times… But, at the end of the day, we’re called to do what’s right.
Christians often get accused of circling the wagons and protecting abusers… I understand why the concepts of Grace and forgiveness often get confusing in these situations, but I refuse to play a part of covering up intentional, ungoing, unrepentant sin. This man should be reconciled to his wife or stay single.
Well, unfortunately, he actually died a few months back. So, it’s really a non issue anymore.
Wow jb and Amanda.
Telling christians not to celebrate their second marriages so loudly might rile them up too much. Just ask wally. Have a great day.
Wow, Mike, weighing in on this as if you’re a member of the Church might make people think you’re interested in a conversation…
Careful.
LOL
Mike is trying to incite another butchering!!!!
I don’t understand why anyone would encourage church people to be quiet about sexual misconduct…?
I thought pretty much everyone agreed that we should start holding leaders accountable, instead of sweeping this stuff under the rug for a few decades…
I wonder why Mike doesn’t give a crap about the abandoned woman who is still single, while her husband makes plans to marry again.
Mike if a feckless heathen who cares only for himself. Your point about weighing in on church matters is exactly right.
The better question is, why doesn’t the church give a crap about abandoned spouses while celebrating 2nd marriages?
I care.
I’ll give some other members a chance to answer that, if they feel like defending this behavior…
Put it in a new comment.
Hi preacher Mike, you spineless coward. You don’t even have sufficient testosterone to hang around my place and a talk about this. All you know how to do is take potshots and run away like a craven dog. I do NOT celebrate the fact that I am divorced. If you state that, you are also a craven liar. In fact, you know NOTHING about those circumstances. The very idea that you, as an atheist, think you have a place judging Christians for Christian behavior borders on lunacy. For the record? I have no issue being held accountable by the local body of believers I belong to…none. That is what we do for one another when we sin. Yet, my sin is covered and forgiven by the Lord Jesus, based on my repentance and faith. You actually don’t understand church discipline, because you are a judgmental jerk. I am sure that, in your years as a “minister,” you took every opportunity to drive the sinners from among you. Of course, I suspect your stories of your time as super Christian are lies. Driving the sinner from the body is NOT the objective of church discipline, the restoration of said person through repentance. Your lack of understanding of anything scriptural is abysmal and proves the lies you tell. Have a nice day, you gutless coward!
You are not required to explain yourself to pagans.
True that