It was a massive tailgate party.
Millions of people left their homes in Manitowoc and journeyed to Green Bay.
They followed Larry’s Winnebago by day.
They carried coolers, grills, umbrellas, and folding chairs.
They settled in a parking lot near Lambeau field.
And they celebrated with music and dancing.
The above event is historical fiction.
A quick glance at the narrative reveals some obvious problems:
- The author is unknown.
- There is no specific date given for the event.
- Manitowoc does not have a population of millions.
- Archeologists find no coolers, grills or folding chairs in the Lambeau parking lot.
- No archeology proves Larry was a real person.
- Evidence from the movie “Footloose” indicates dancing was not allowed.
Obviously, there was no tailgate party near Lambeau field.
Case closed.
The Egyptians urged the people to hasten their departure.
The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Succoth.
There were about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides children.
Moses sent them from the wilderness of Paran.
The above event is also historical fiction.
- The author is unknown.
- Dates must be inferred from other sources.
- No archeological evidence proves Moses was a real person.
- Egyptian history doesn’t mention the Exodus.
- Archeology finds no evidence for millions of people in Paran.
Obviously, the Jews were never enslaved in Egypt.
The unreliable Old Testament is the sole source of Hebrew history.
Skeptics are suspicious of the entire origins narrative.
The only rational conclusion to make is:
Jews are historical fiction.
Some people object to this thesis.
Jews, mostly.
That is understandable.
They have a lot at stake.
If the Bible critics are correct…
…Jews don’t actually exist.
They are imaginary characters dreamed up by prehistoric Canaanites.
The implications of this truth are profound!
Jews have made contributions to science, medicine, art, and culture…
…without the advantage of being material.
Do we take back all those Nobel Prizes?
Not yet.
Let’s wait and see if future science disproves this theory.
Let’s at least re-watch “Footloose”.
138 Responses
All five contentions are obvious garbage.
“The author is unknown.
Dates must be inferred from other sources.
No archeological evidence proves Moses was a real person.
Egyptian history doesn’t mention the Exodus.
Archeology finds no evidence for millions of people in Paran.”
1. The author is actually mostly self-identified (Moses).
2. Actually, no they don’t. Scholars have something called “historical synchronisms” that they can use to identify the dating of a source, i.e. the Pentateuch (first five books of the Old Testament, otherwise the ones written by Moses).
3. This is almost too stupid, aside from the fact that there is archaeological evidence for the exodus, and also aside from you misspelling the word ‘archaeological’. The reason why this is one of the most stupid things I’ve ever read is because the number of “archaeologically established historical figures” from the time of Moses is around 20 out of the fifty million alive.
4. Egyptian history mentions military losses, but the archaeological record does show that after the exodus happened, Egypt entered into a considerable military decline.
5. The exodus sources do not say there were millions of figures.
Appreciate the perspective, Faithful! Just a quick note: you’re arguing with the wrong person. Read through the comments, and you’ll meet the Exodus-deniers that this post was written (satirically) for. 🙂
Also, just FYI, archeological has two spellings.
http://www.saa.org/ForthePublic/Resources/OtherUsefulResources/Whyaretheretwodifferentspellingsarchaeology/tabid/1078/Default.aspx
John and mrsmcmommy,
I am so saddened to find out that I (or at least half of me) does not exist. I am an ancestry buff, and took the plunge to have my Ancestry DNA test done. I am 51% Asheknazi Jewish genetically. I am now half the man I used to be, it seems.
Were I a liberal, I would call such assertions racist and anti-semitic, and I would have half a mind (would have to be the non-ethnically Jewish half, since that Jewish half apparently no longer exists) to take to the streets and protest.
But on a more serious note, I did some research and came across an article by Dennis Prager, who many may know as a Conservative Republican who also happens to be a Jew. He is a very well educated and articulate fellow who I enjoy listening to on the radio. he makes good points on the veracity of the Exodus and how ridiculous it would be for the Jews to perpetuate a story that paints them in such a bad light. The book of Exodus shows them as ingrates, rebellious, and often at enmity with the very God Who rescued them. It points to their roots as slaves, which no other people commemorate as part of their ethnic culture. Link follows:
http://www.chabaduchicago.com/templates/articlecco_cdo/aid/242888/jewish/Faith-in-Exodus-If-the-Exodus-did-not-occur-there-is-no-Judaism.htm
And here is an article by a non-existent Jewish Rabbi who takes issue with what some of his more famous colleagues have said about the Exodus.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-adam-jacobs/9-reasons-to-believe-that_b_7968204.html
Oh, and a bonus bit of fun to read for the exasperated believers in here:
https://appliedfaith.org/2015/07/12/what-i-learned-about-hardened-hearts/
Read it. It will be a deja vu moment, I promise.
Dave
Deuteronomy 31:24-26 – (ESV)
When Moses had finished writing the words of this law in a book to the very end, Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, “Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.
Great links, Dave!
That one at Applied Faith made me LOL!
“Ark couldn’t possibly have a job with the immense amount of trolling he does.”
HAHAHAHA!!
Well, actually, that’s not quite fair. He feeds the dog sometimes. And, when he’s a good boy, he gets to ride up front when it’s time to deliver cakes.
Dave?
😎
Wow,
You all honor me with your praise. I am quite humbled (When I first typed that, I mistyped “jumbled”… I might be that as well).
But as funny as the Applied Faith link was, it also made me a little sad. Sad in the sense that it makes these guys seem pathologically obsessed with their blog activities. Imagine what great things these guys could do if they were believers, putting forth all of their energy and effort into honoring and glorifying their Creator.
I wonder what offense has been done to them to make them rail against people who love the Lord, share love with others, and give of their time, talents, and treasures (props to Hank Hanegraaf for the alliteration) to others, with no thought of recompense. Perhaps where they live, they have never encountered a genuine believer in the wild, one who lived out his faith as he ought. It does make me pity them, somewhat. Of course, they may spew vitriol my way, diminishing my moment of soft-heartedness toward them.
Maybe it will help them to hear that we are not gathering to dance and sing for joy that they are bound for Hell, but that we actually do care for their eternal souls. We are not here on this earth to win an argument, but to “win” in the sense that we get to be a part of God’s inner working in their very souls to His glory and their salvation.
To me, that is as crazy as someone getting angry when you say you will pray for them. You have just said that you care enough about them that you will spend private time thinking of them when you commune with the Almighty. They should be flattered and glad, even if they were unbelievers. What unbeliever will tell someone, “I will think of you when I am alone, hoping for the best for you, in love.”?
Blegh… I was just going to say thanks for the replies, and I got all verbose again. Heh.
Blessed Christmas to all, and to all a good night,
Dave
2 Timothy 1:8-9 (ESV) – Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us ta a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
For even MORE reading:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/moses-exodus.html
JZ just has a really bad case of playing by his own rules: rules that apparently don’t apply to us. But I guess we can’t blame him. He is an atheist after all. You can make whatever rules you want, they don’t have to be fair or logical. Heck, they don’t even have to work! So long as you’ve won in your own mind, who cares if the rest of the world thinks you’re an idiot? You know you’re right.
Hi Jasmine
As you seem to know what’s going on, then perhaps you can answer then for Branyan?
What evidence did Sarna present so as to be so “confident”?
It’s not a complicated question, nor unreasonable… Especially considering Branyan posted the quote as if it meant something.
I look forward to your reply.
I can tell you for certain that my dad can’t speak for Sarna.
I’m surprised you haven’t interviewed Sarna yourself! (*Snort!*)
So you’re a liar AND a coward?
You’re asking Jasmine to speak on behalf of a quote that I gave you. Brilliant!
The quote from Sarna, since you’re apparently too busy concocting lies to actually read it, is a summarization of what can generally be stated about the Exodus narrative from purely archaeological/historical data. Sarna was a noted Biblical scholar.
You are a noted atheist liar. Your credibility is shot. Continuing to press for explanations in this forum should embarrass you.
Nope, sorry, you still haven’t detailed what his evidence was.
But don’t worry, it’s clear you don’t know, so I won’t push it. Plus you’ve already bored me to tears with your usual Diversion Song and Dance.
So you picked a good sounding quote from a Jewish librarian, but got embarrassed when actually pressed on the matter.
No problem.
And John, the archaeological/historical data says there was no Exodus.
Here is Israel’s preeminent archaeologist saying just that:
How many times must this be repeated?
The hills where Judah and Israel (who got its name from El, the Canaanite god, not Yhwh)would be founded were settled 50 years after the landing of the Philistines on the Levant in 1100 BCE. This is a fact. It was Canaanites (with Canaanite culture and religion) who did the settling. This is also a fact. There was no arrival of 2.5 million people with Egyptian culture, clothing, technology, tools, weapons, diet, language, architecture etc. There was no Conquest.
Rabbi Sherwin T. Wine (A Provocative People)
You need to provide evidence to support Sherwin Wine’s quote.
Sherwin Wine is a “Rabbi” like Oprah is a “Christian.”
Been supplying it for months.
Unfortunately, it’s all been hitting your wall of Willful Ignorance.
The facts, though, are not secret. They are in the public domain, but as Professor Magen Broshi, Chief Archaeologist at the Israel Museum, Jerusalem, explained:
So you blundered. No problem.
Jesus blundered terribly, too.
He thought Moses was a real person.
Still, I’m keen to hear which part of the narrative, exactly, you actually believe to be true.
You do believe something in the narrative, don’t you?
You are defending something, right?
Perhaps you can pen a post on it?
That would be interesting.
Yeah. I don’t believe any of these comments are true. You haven’t backed up these statements with evidence.
Am I the one quoting a librarian from a pimple-sized uni without even an archaeological department?
No. You’re the proven liar who makes up facts and retracts them when pressed.
Lie? Lied about what?
Teaching?
Perhaps you don’t know how university’s operate, John. You see, you have lecturers (professors or doctors who set the curriculums and mostly conduct the lectures), and under them you have a host of lesser teaching staff, including postgrad students who (generally, but not always) run the tutorials , and are paid by the department for that work. It’s the bus-work. Nothing glamorous. Quite boring.
But, as has been said, I’m not the subject here.
You and your wild baseless statement is: Jews “object” to the thesis.
This is wrong, John.
They don’t object.
In fact, their adult-like rational acceptance of reality is to be admired and celebrated.
Pity we can’t say the same thing about you and your evangelicals colleagues.
But anyway, you’ve once again bored me with this subject as you insist on repeating your pantomime while pretending to “think” honestly about the subject.
So, have a great day.
JB is traveling this weekend. Successful Christian comedian, remember? 😉 So he won’t have time to talk much anyway. I guess it’s just as well that you’re “bored.” (Convenient how that always seems to happen when you’re made to look ridiculous.)
Before our next conversation, I recommend calling up some of your “experts” and asking them to post a paper or at least do an interview with someone other than a sleazy web-tabloid. It must be frustrating for someone to know the truth about what what the vast majority of Jews think/believe, and be literally the only one in the world who can verify half of those quotes. (I mean, I’m impressed the way you’ve filled the internet with the same dozen statements that you’ve reused over and over and over. But it would be nice to see where they came from in context. We know from experience that sometimes college tutors fudge a little.)
You’re free to conduct your own research.
Bye.
Do you really mean “bye” this time, or do I get another copied-and-pasted wall of text soon?
BYE!
I understand, educating yourself on “facts” and “reality” is uncomfortable for you (and your dad.)
Still, you should read his email. He’s speaking directly to you, and your dad.
You forgot “Bye”…
?
No–you’re quoting a Detroit-born philosopher who only became a “Rabbi” so that people like you could get mileage out of his quotes.
Famous for: being a “Jew” who doesn’t practice Judaism.
What a solid source! #HumanistOfTheYear
Professor Magen Broshi, Chief Archaeologist at the Israel Museum, Jerusalem , is a Detroit philosopher?
Professor Ze’ev Herzog, head of the Archaeology Dept. at Tel Aviv University, is a Detroit philosopher?
Interesting…
You know exactly which one is the Detroit-born philosopher.
Your list of “sources” is a carefully-selected group of mostly-Americans, who are Jewish-in-name-only. There are only a handful of actual experts who are strict Biblical Minimalists, and the rest (like you) are just parroting what they heard from those sources. Most scholars say “No evidence doesn’t mean the Exodus didn’t happen at all…just that it was small and the dates weren’t literal.”
And you’ve intentionally left out the parts of their beliefs which don’t agree with YOUR black-and-white pantomime.
Nobody is fooled by you, old man.
Yes, that would make your pantomime more appealing, wouldn’t it… but sadly, for you, it’s simply false.
The majority of rabbis I interviewed were Israeli’s, from all Jewish Movements, including Orthodox, like Orthodox Rabbi Shalom Carmy who wrote:
That’s an Orthodox rabbi conceding that.
Every archaeologist I, however, interviewed were Israeli.
Here’s one for you. Dr. Erez Ben-Yosef, which you might find interesting for his thoughts on facts and belief.
Yosef, whose paper “A New Chronological Framework for Iron Age Copper Production at Timna (Israel)” was heralded as the most influential paper published in BASOR (Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research). Ben-Yosef also co-authored a startling paper last year, titled, “The Introduction of Domestic Camels to the Southern Levant: Evidence from the Aravah Valley,” which further dismisses the Pentateuch as a “historical” document.
And for your information, Ben-Yosef is a practicing Jew, a theist, but, unlike you and your father, honest enough in himself, and his work, to admit the Jewish origin narrative is nothing but inventive geopolitical myth invented in the 7th Century BCE to satisfy the territorial ambitions of Judah after the sacking of Mamlekhet Yisra’el (Kingdom of Israel) in 722 BCE.
So, there you have it from an Israeli (theist) archaeologist: facts and belief are incompatible. Since this first exchange I’ve spoken to him a bit about all this, and he’s an interesting chap.
So, in the future, perhaps you and your father could stop with the attempts to present hilariously wrong “facts,” and being embarrassed and demoralised doing so, and just settle for what you actually have: belief/faith, and nothing else.
Stick to that subject, and no one will have the need to (endlessly) correct you both.
Bye.
Share the quotes where the Orthodox Jews said “The Exodus never happened” or “Moses didn’t exist at all.”
We’re on to you and your games, Liar.
Orthodox still do cling to the myth, never said otherwise, although Carmy’s admission is telling… as too is Solomons call for the Orthodox to give it up and accept what every other Jewish movement has accepted:
It’s myth. None of it happened.
Buy his 2012 book… and educate yourself.
Bye?
To repeat:
Lol!
If these “experts” knew how you were taking their small quotes and turning it into a new Fundamentalism, they would be pissed.
BYE!
Seems the 2016 Oxford Word of Year was coined for you and your father:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y336/johnzande/post-truth_zpsqqlmmz8y.png
Some words for you:
College tutor.
Liar.
Possibly software.
Fundamentalist.
Bye?
You are so filled with hate and rage. Such ugly emotions.
Evidently, you never went to Uni, huh?
I taught at the college level, actually.
LOL!!!!
#tutor
Then you know postgrad students often run the tutorials.
Bye.
Yep.
Hilarious.
Not really. It’s quite boring work, but it does pay well for a student.
So, not “bye”?
My dad has taught at dozens.
BAHAHAHAHA!
But seriously.
#Tutor
Dozens, huh?
More than two.
By the way, if you don’t know what “bye” means, I can recommend a great tutor.
HAHAHA!
Dozens, yes, I heard you the first time.
Well, more than two.
Bye?
Yes, dozens… I did hear you the first time.
Dozens.
I don’t know. I wasn’t born yet. He said, “Probably a dozen” and I interpreted that to mean “dozens.”
As I said, we college tutors fudge a little.
Bye!
Lol. Yes! That’s it, JZ! Keep reading Jesus’ mind! That ought to impress the pants off of John Blande. 😉
But, seriously, Dad: don’t write any more posts on archaeology. Please. Please?
Readers only care when we can employ confirmation bias. And, since literally ANYONE can Google a quote that looks like evidence (even if the quote only exists on their own, personal blog), it’s a game that gets old fast.
You should Write some more about morality! Maybe the psychology/biology behind why rape fantasies like 50 Shades of Gray are so popular… (That topic seemed to silence The Wind last time I brought it up.)
WWJZD:
Mrsmcmommy, present evidence that I am wearing pants capable of being impressed off of me. Oops, I’m not wearing any. How embarrassing for you.
I think I’m getting the hang of this. Still so much to learn.
If you want to learn how to be a Biblical Minimalist, do what the great JZ does…
Read RawStory.
LOL!
No, seriously:
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/04/most-rabbis-think-passover-and-other-old-testament-stories-are-fiction/
Self-published book and a feature on RawStory…
You have a lot of ground to cover before you can be THAT great, Blande! 🙂
If my evolved neurological impulses had any meaning, that might depress me
No, see JZ: you are only interested in asking your own questions, not answering ours. I’m not sure you understand how WE see the rules. If you go to someone else’s blog, and start posting rebuttals, we expect you to defend your position before we expound on ours because YOU came and picked a fight with what has ALREADY BEEN stated.
Because you refuse to answer our questions, it appears to us that you cannot defend your position, and since the only thing you do is try and deflect all our questions and turn them back on us, we can only assume your beliefs (sorry, lack thereof) are threatened. I’m yet to hear a solid defence of your position in your own words.
Basically if the only way you can defend the truth of your position is by nit-picking and tearing down the opposition, I seriously doubt the validity of your stance. If your position can’t stand on its own—without the analysis and criticism of the opposing view—then just how substantial is it? Truly, if you really did stand by your views, you would not need to be asking the questions. You would be telling us the truth.
No, my original comment merely identified John Branyan’s pantomime statement that Jews “object” to the thesis concerning their actual history.
Jews do not object.
Branyan just made that up because it served his pantomime.
It is not based in reality.
He has no idea what he’s talking about.
Jews (excluding the Orthodox, naturally, but not all Orthodox as I have demonstrated) are, in fact, the ones leading the charge.
The only people “objecting” are US evangelicals.
As Rabbi Irwin Kula, president of The National Jewish Centre for Learning and Leadership, adjunct at the United Theological Seminary wrote me:
Or as Rabbi Nardy Grün wrote me from Israel a few years ago:
And here you have it, folks! The Paragon of Parley has irrefutably refuted JB’s thesis that Jews object to the thesis of “Jews don’t exist.” It’s a good thing it wasn’t all just a silly pantomime or some sort of satirical form, or this discussion would have been quite awkward indeed.
-whoosh
Blande – How many universities have you taught at? If it’s less than 2, you don’t get to comment.
Enough to know that the correct word is “fewer.” If quoting Jew-but-not-Jew Rabbis at people on the sidewalk consists of tutoring (despite their walls of willful ignorance), then I’ve lost count.
The correct word is “constitutes” and you qualify. Carry on.
Not true! JB needs to present all evidence supporting his one quote until JZ can find something objectionable in order to throw it out. JZ need only list any number of names and his own word that they agree with him, and any scrutiny of them is disallowed upon the principal that anything less isn’t taking him at his enlightened word. They’re exactly equal for both sides and are no more different than the terms “finding” and “being.”
There is no mention of the exodus in Egyptian history because it would make the Egyptians look bad. Self deprication in historical documents is one of the signs that the documents are true or at least not entirely fictional. History (typically written by the “winners”) can often be lacking in details that make the winners look bad or appear weak or ignorant.
To piece together two seemingly different views of history, common places, practices, customs and people need to be considered. Along with archeological research and data, it can be fairly easy to at the least, disprove the claims that certain people and certain events never existed or happened.
IOW: The claim that the Bible is 100% fiction and that Jesus never lived can be falsified beyond a reasonable doubt.
For additional reading. 🙂
http://www.jpost.com/opinion/op-ed-contributors/the-exodus-does-archaeology-have-a-say-348464
Atheist historian Tim O’Neil:
“One of the occupational hazards of being an atheist and secular humanist who hangs around on discussion boards is to encounter a staggering level of historical illiteracy. I like to console myself that many of the people on such boards have come to their atheism via the study of science and so, even if they are quite learned in things like geology and biology, usually have a grasp of history stunted at about high school level. I generally do this because the alternative is to admit that the average person’s grasp of history and how history is studied is so utterly feeble as to be totally depressing…”
This was written by a JEW!
I dismiss it because it is biased.
The article was written by a Jew.
And the quote I just shared was given by an Atheist.
Hopefully Tim O’Niel isn’t reading right now, because I’m afraid he would be face-palming about all the amazing positive claims a Fundamentalist Atheist can come up with, after hearing “There is no evidence.”
Um…I beg your pardon…JZ assured me that there is no disagreement among scholars that the Exodus didn’t happen.
If you need proof…google it yourself.
I have no idea what the majority of scholars are saying about the Exodus. And, quite frankly, I don’t care much. 🙂
I just love watching how they can take one, small statement from scientists and turn it into a religion of its own. lol.
“There is no evidence outside the Torah for Moses” becomes “Moses didn’t exist” becomes “Jesus didn’t know that Moses was fictional” becomes “Jesus wasn’t God” becomes “People who believe in God are indoctrinated and delusional.”
It’s magnificent!
I bet JZ has more quotes to paste!
I’ve already conceded that scholars disagree about Exodus. When he pastes his quotes, he is demonstrating that I’m correct.
I appreciate his help but it’s still horrifyingly boring.
At least my article is kinda funny…
Last time JZ shared quotes from his “Jewish Rabbi” folder, I asked whether he was converting to Judaism.
Surprisingly, he didn’t answer.
I guess he only likes what a Jew has to say, if it agrees with his pre-held beliefs…?
You think?
Hopefully he will paste in a response to that thought.
Here’s William G. Dever:
“In my view, most of the revisionists are no longer honest scholars, weighing all the evidence, attempting to be objective and fair-minded historians, seeking the truth. Determined to unmask the ideology of others, they have become ideologues themselves. The revisionist and the postmoderns are dangerous because they have created a kind of relativism—an anything goes attitude—that makes serious, critical inquiry difficult if not impossible.”
And another Pantomime!
Jews don’t object to the thesis. Jews are the one’s informing the rest of the world of what their true origin is.
Want to know who the leading biblical archaeologists are?
Israeli Jews!
Rabbi Sherwin T. Wine (A Provocative People)
Obviously, I’m not boring you anymore.
But you’re still boring me.
“Tailgate parties at Lambeau stadium are legendary stories, nobody sojourned to Green Bay or made an exodus from other cities. Those who take an interest have known these facts for years,”
(John Branyan, Guy who acknowledges there will be disagreement on this subject.)
Yay! We knew you’d come through with more of these! Why are you posting one at a time? You have a whole collection!
Post them all!
“John Zande is a useless bag of wind and that is how I respond to him.”
(Comedian, John Branyan)
“John Zande’s posts are Atheist Mythology. My duty as a Comedian is to highlight folly. He doesn’t write facts, but myth. And if it weren’t for me, nobody would be reading it.”
(Comedian John Branyan)
“The Torah is not a book we turn to for historical accuracy … The rejection of the Bible as literally true is more or less settled and understood among most Conservative rabbis.”
(Which is essentially what I’ve suggested all along…)
Rabbi Sherwin T. Wine, A Provocative People
Professor Adam Zartal from Haifa:
“After years of research, I believe it is impossible to explore Israel’s origins without the bible. At the same time, the research should be as objective as possible. The bible should be used cautiously and critically. But again and again we have seen the historical value of the bible. Again and again we have seen that an accurate memory has been preserved in its transmuted narratives, waiting to be unearthed and exposed by archaeological fieldwork and critical mind work.”
Sherwin T. Wine is an atheist.
His take on the scripture is biased.
On the Pentateuch:
Still want to stick to your pantomime that Jews “object”?
You are aware, aren’t you, John Branyan, that over 50% of the Jewish population is atheist.
Just 11% (the population of Orthodox Jews) still actually cling to the myth.
But sadly for US evangelicals, even this internal support is in fact crumbling under the strength of modern archaeology. For example, in 2012 Orthodox Rabbi Norman Solomon published his book, Torah from Heaven: The Reconstruction of Faith, in which he calls for the orthodox movement to finally accept what has been known to archaeologists (and accepted within all other Jewish movements) for over two generations: that the Patriarch narrative, Moses, Exodus, and Conquest is not rooted in reality but is rather a “foundation myth;” an origin dream, not a descriptive historical fact.
But I am curious…
If, as you are saying, everything in the presented Exodus narrative is wrong, then what are you actually defending?
The date = wrong
The numbers given = wrong
The route/stations = wrong
Moses = not an historical character
Conquest = didn’t happen.
So, what are you defending?
What is right/accurate in the story?
Can you let me know…
“We can confidently assert…that a group of people who later became Israel went down to Egypt from Canaan, eventually settling there. At some point they were conscripted in a corvee and were oppressed as foreigners. Some of them later escaped and had a theophanous experience in the desert. Still later, they or their descendants entered Canaan, where, joined by other peoples, they became Israel.”
(Nahum M. Sarna, Brandeis University)
Confidently, based on what, exactly?
Attaboy !
More skepticism! So very intellectual.
Do you think the Jews are historical fiction?
Here we go, The Branyan Song and Dance.
What is the source of his “confidence”?
What evidence has he presented?
Or have you no idea and just copy n’pasted this quote without knowing a thing?
Here we go indeed!
Your copy and paste sources are credible because you say so.
My copy and paste sources are unreliable because you say so.
You’re the dancing singer, not me.
Actually, I’ve interviewed over 60 Rabbis and Israeli archaeologists regarding the Pentateuch.
Have you?
So, tell me, John Branyan… What is the source of his “confidence”?
What evidence has your librarian presented?
Could you detail it, please?
Wow!
Give us the names of those 60 rabbis so we can verify what you say is true.
(…I figured you’d anticipate this.)
Last chance
So, tell me, John Branyan… What is the source of Sarna’s “confidence”?
What evidence has he presented to support that quote?
Could you detail it, please?
Never heard of Brandeis University before, and see it’s a private Jewish school. And I see that Nahum Mattathias Sarna is (was) a librarian.
Interesting.
So, what is he basing his “confidence” on?
And you never answered my question.
What part of the narrative story do you actually hold to be true?
Most people haven’t heard of John Zande before. Tell us, which Universities have you taught at?
Two, actually.
Cool! Tell us which ones so we can find your name on the faculty list!
(I figured you anticipate this request…)
I’m not the subject.
So, tell me, John Branyan… What is the source of his “confidence”?
What evidence has your librarian presented?
Could you detail it, please?
What is the source of your “confidence”?
What evidence suggests that you have the vaguest idea what you’re talking about?
Could you detail it please?
Last chance
So, tell me, John Branyan… What is the source of Sarna’s “confidence”?
What evidence has he presented to support that quote?
Could you detail it, please?
Ha ha haha haaaaaa!
I’m going to go ahead and talk to my other readers for a moment….
…John Zande is a pompous blow-hard. His words cannot be verified. This is why it’s important for Christians to have a grasp on history and science. It’s the only way we can have confidence that what we believe is true…
Last chance
Why should we believe anything you say about the Old Testament?
What evidence have you presented to support any of your quotes?
What colleges have you taught at?
What Jewish rabbis have you interviewed?
Could you detail it, please?
Oh dear, appears you’ve been caught-out copying n’ pasting a quote that you have absolutely no idea what it based on.
That’s embarrassing.
Tremendously persuasive, John Branyan.
I’ll leave you to it…
Well, that part is true.
We’ve all been copying and pasting whatever we find in Google that seems to match our thesis.
We learned that from you, old buddy.
LOL!
Oh dear, appears you’ve been caught-out claiming to have taught 2 universities and interviewed 60 rabbis; both claims being utter lies.
That’s embarrassing.
Of course, you can’t be embarrassed because you don’t even understand what just happened.
http://i.giphy.com/fD8aSIg2LwXyE.gif
And do let me know (eventually, of course) what, exactly, in the narrative you actually do believe to be true.
As we’ve established:
It’s not Moses
It’s not the date
It’s not the numbers
It’s not the Stations
It’s not the Conquest of 30 cities
In other words, you don’t seem to believe a single line in the story, and that raises the question: What are you actually defending?
To be answered another day.
…to the other readers…
Notice that JZ remains oblivious to the truth that he has lost all credibility? He genuinely believes we’ll all just ignore the his blatant lies and accept his Old Testament criticisms. This is arrogance bordering on super-human.
…. now back to JZ …
http://i.giphy.com/fD8aSIg2LwXyE.gif
Oh, come on now… I’m sure he speaks fluent Hebrew and interviewed those Jewish Rabbis himself!
I’m sure Western, liberal rabbis who live in Los Angeles aren’t the only quotes he has accumulated!
And, I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that searching for his quotes on Google almost always brings up HIS OWN BLOG rather than other credible sources…. (Coincidence, I say.)
What we need around here is more space for JZ to educate us all! 🙂
Since the jig is up and we all know you fib about stuff, I’ve got some suggestions for how to make your fictional self more impressive.
Tell us that you’ve been on archaeological digs and that several noted historians cite you in their published papers.
Tell us that you’ve interviewed C.S. Lewis and he recanted his faith and confessed that his works were just a sham to make money.
Tell us that you’ve served as consultant for Hebrew translators.
Tell us you ARE Jewish.
Tell us you have personally funded humanitarian efforts around the world.
We have a phrase here in the states, “Go big or go home.”
If you’re gonna blow, Windbag, blow hard!
There’s that John Branyan Pantomime Straw Man Machine working again.
Did I ever claim to be an archaeologist, or anything even related to the field?
Errrrum, no.
I answered your question: How many universities have you taught at? Two. But it was only tutoring, so I’m just messing with you. I didn’t pursue academia, but I do coach PhD students here on writing their theses. It’s a fun side interest.
So, I’ll leave you be to mop up your spilled pantomime.
Again.
And do be sure to get back to me at some later date as to what, exactly, in the Exodus narrative you actually do believe to be true.
As we’ve established:
It’s not Moses
It’s not the date given
It’s not the numbers cited
It’s not the Stations named
It’s not the Conquest of 30 Canaanite cities
In other words, you don’t seem to believe a single line in the story, and that raises the question: What are you actually defending?
And John, a word of advice to save you from future embarrassment, don’t copy n’ paste something if you have no idea what it’s about and can’t defend it.
That just makes you look pathetic.
I don’t believe you.
None of it.
Can’t be verified so it isn’t true.
do be sure to get back to me at some later date as to what, exactly, in the Exodus narrative you actually do believe to be true.
As we’ve established:
It’s not Moses
It’s not the date given
It’s not the numbers cited
It’s not the Stations named
It’s not the Conquest of 30 Canaanite cities
In other words, you don’t seem to believe a single line in the story, and that raises the question: What are you actually defending?
I’ve been reading along (as you well know, because you have to work hard to ignore me), and I never saw anyone “establish” anything.
I see you repeating your Atheist Fundmantalist dogma as if it’s the only truth. (Props for quoting “Jews,” though! People see that and assume they are the religious sort. But you’re only quoting other atheists who have ethnic ties to Israel. Clever, clever!) 🙂
Rabbi Wolpe is an atheist?
Rabbi Norman Solomon is an atheist?
Rabbi Bradley Shavit Artson is an atheist?
Kevin D. Miller is an atheist?
Rabbi Irwin Kula is an atheist?
Rabbi Shalom Carmy is an atheist?
Rabbi Steven Leder is an atheist?
Rabbi Robert Schreibman is an atheist?
Baruch Halpern is an atheist?
Robert Coote is an atheist?
Rabbi Victor Appell is an atheist?
Rabbi Robert Schreibman is an atheist?
Dr Erez Ben-Yosef is na athesit?
Professor Rafi Greenberg is na athesit?
Goodness, you better alert these people (and dozens more) immediately and let them know they’re not believing theists?
Wolpe will be tremendously interested, especially because I’ve asked him personally why he still believed.
Seems his answer was wrong.
Appears you know more about these people than they do.
Well done.
They’re Jewish the same way John Pavlovitz and Rachel Held Evans are Christian.
But I’m glad you finally decided to post your complete list at once! Saves us some time…
It’s clear you don’t understand what the word “Jew”means.
It can refer to ethnicity or to religion, dolt.
He thinks it’s more compelling if he shares his dozen quotes one at a time.
Ask him if he’s converting to Judaism!
Hey jz
Did I ever tell you about Acts chapter 7? Did you ever read it? Carefully? Honestly?
Well sir, the oration covers all your claims here, now, as well as your hero friends, the unbelieving rabbis. THEY are the offspring of others who deny the greater travesty: refusal to see Christ as the Messiah and the son of God.
Do away with the facts of the Old Testament, and presto chango, magic! No Christ, and no accountability to anything or anyone.It’s hard to ignore the thundering opening of the New Testament, linking the promises off God directly to the promises of the Old, ahem, as in Abraham…….Isaac, Jacob, David!, and of course there is always Moses.
Read Acts 7 without the aid of your biased friends. Use you God given brain. Allow the history of Israel and their stubbornness to speak to your heart. And oh, Stephen was stoned to death because of the penetrating truth of scripture. And this is what your rabbi brethren do also, they hold put their fingers in their ears, as do you.
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y336/johnzande/Pussy%201_zps9iggudml.png
Yeah zande, your villainry has always been on display.
And you may want to change your bastard quote, as in……………
PRESIDENT Trump has not spoken one word yet…………..but of course in your world of illusion and mirrors, words mean nothing.
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y336/johnzande/My%20Daughter_zpsq6z8hdmb.png
And you wonder why so many people toss you off their blog or moderate you.
I handed you a gift via comment that is actually relevant to this post in general and your comment about your rabbi friends specifically.
Yet here you are are pulling a zandini, that great illusionist, taking a post into the weeds. Hope your atheist brethren are watching.
(and by way, if Trump is crass, you are evil)
You’re just not worth talking to.
It’s as simple as that.
Yeah, people tend to have that reaction when they read the sting of Acts seven………
Hey, CS.
Using God’s Word isn’t a fair fight! 😉
You should help me find quotes from JZ’s trusted sources: Jewish scholars. lol. He likes what they say so much, he may just convert!
@MrsM
Yeh, it’s truly not fair. Daylight has never lost a battle to darkness.
But here’s a fav from another camp of Judaism. Mr. Friedman in an interview, discussing Israel, Jews, the Exodus, archaeology said this:
‘I respect Professor Sperling and Rabbi Wolpe. They were understandably following the claims of some of our archaeologists. Those archaeologists’ claims that the Exodus never happened are not based on evidence, but largely on its absence. They assert that we’ve combed the Sinai and not found any evidence of the mass of millions of people whom the Bible says were there for 40 years. That assertion is just not true. There have not been many major excavations in the Sinai, and we most certainly have not combed it. Moreover, uncovering objects buried 3,200 years ago is a daunting endeavor. An Israeli colleague laughingly told me that a vehicle that had been lost in the 1973 Yom Kippur War was recently uncovered under 16 meters—that’s 52 feet—of sand. Fifty-two feet in 40 years!’
Just a snippet, but zandini will come crying with more ‘facts.’ Godlessness is a burden easily relieved by common sense and a thirst for truth.
THAT’S the idea. 🙂
It’s not enough for John Branyan to say “there’s disagreement.”
Apparently we need to demonstrate it by actually quoting those who disagree with JZ’s champions. 🙂
Thing is…
Even JZ’s ‘champions’ would object to the conclusions he’s drawing from their quotes.
As I suspected…
(But, like I said on the phone, it’s harder to verify sources when they’re translated from Hebrew. I prefer when he cites things like–for example–the Oxford Classical Dictionary. Lol! Checking JZ’s sources can be loads of fun.)
He won’t tell me where he’s taught.
He won’t tell me who he has interviewed.
But I’m supposed to bolster my quotes with more quotes.
…I gotta find my windbag picture.
I really wish he’d name some names… I’d love to find out how long it took the historians to block JZ’s email address. (Real scholars don’t have time for dogmatic fundamentalists who aren’t interested in learning so much as in confirming their own theories and ripping quotes from experts out of context.)
Want to see Zande blow a gasket? Ask him about the believing Jew, that incomparable scholar who wrote the stellar ‘Old Testament Bible History,’ as well as the masterpiece ‘Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah.’
God forbid a believing Jew would believe the scriptures. 😉
But I do not like to play link-pong. 😉
Jooooohn! Stop acting like you can’t answer his questions and are on the ropes on this one! I know you just want to reduce JB’s suffering, but you should use your enlightened self-interest to win this in a heartbeat! Fools who use logic will start to be clouded in judgment when seeing that your claims appear way less credible than his when matched side by side. If you discard any credibility of being an archaeologist now when it’s convenient, they have no reason to believe you if you discredit his source’s source of confidence without another google quote.
Why are you asking more questions? They don’t erase all of his that you never answer (or only answer with jokes that are revealed to be jokes after any sort of pressure). Are you imitating JB’s song and dance as a form of satire? My misunderstandings just tell me that I have so much more to learn from you. You should tell him that THIS right here is one of the universities you’ve taught at, and I am your only faithful student. I will not be swayed by the enemy’s logic!
That’s quite a story! lol
I’m just going where the evidence leads, CS.