“Which church do you go to?”
Everyone loves this question.
Because everyone can answer it!
It’s like being asked, “Where do you live?”
The answer doesn’t require any theology.
Leaves no room for argument.
Even heathen love this question!
Their hearts leap as they proclaim, “I don’t go to church.”
But it doesn’t stop there.
Heathen will then go on and on and on and on and on…
(repeat saying ‘and on’ until the comment section of my blog is 30 miles long)
…with criticisms of church people and church policies.
Criticisms that are completely, totally…
…deserved.
Because many Christians can only answer one question about their faith:
“Which church do you go to?”
Heathen: “Do you go to church?”
Christian: “Yes! I go to Family Oak Creek River Connection Life Assembly of Joy.”
Heathen: “What do they teach there?”
Christian: “Visit on Sunday and ask my Pastor!”
Obviously, I’m over exaggerating.
…Heathen don’t ask rational questions.
And they can’t answer questions any better than the Christians they criticize:
Christian: “Do you go to church?”
Heathen: “No!”
Christian: “What do you believe?”
Heathen: “I disagree with whatever you believe.”
And the battle begins!
A clash of ignorant titans!
Neither person articulates what is ‘right’.
Only that the opponent is ‘wrong’.
I’m sympathetic to heathen stupidity.
Without the Holy Spirit, they’re just animals with typing skills.
“So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new!” – 2 Corinthians 5:17
Christians, you got no excuse.
If you need the pastor to explain your faith…
…you don’t have a faith worth explaining.
By all means, answer the question;
“Which church do you go to?”
Then answer the more important question:
94 Responses
You suppose Doug would go read the blogs of deconverted atheists in order to understand them better?
You think I haven’t?
Perhaps you have a few you particularly like that you want me to read. Feel free to offer … I’ll read them.
http://leestrobel.com/
http://coldcasechristianity.com/
http://www.eoht.info/page/Bo+Jinn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNkxpTIbCIw (HERE’S A VIDEO! YOU LIKE THESE!)
Don’t forget the testimonies of C.S. Lewis, Alister McGrath, Michael Reiss, John Lawson Stoddard, John Warwick Montgomery, aaaaaaand Ark’s favorite: Francis Collins! (Raised agnostic.)
A positive claim that will , I think, withstand a large degree of scrutiny.
Of course, when you and I use the term archaeologist we just might not mean quite the same thing.
Do you need further clarification?
No.
I already know your definition of a scholar/trusted-source/reliable data is anything that agrees with your pre-held beliefs. AND, if I were to give you a source who also happened to be a religious person, you would wave it away.
So, no, thank you.
Religious archaeologists, and here we are of course primarily talking about fundamentalist Christians of course, do not count if they consider there is any merit to the biblical tale of the Exodus.
Once you stray from the text, plagues etc and Yahweh’s magical intervention , you can flush your archaeologists hypothesis down the toilet.
Have another go, Amanda. Perhaps you could try being honest?
“Religious archaeologists…do not count…”
I rest my case.
Lol! What case?
You should get a side gig with your old man, you are an absolute scream!
Oh, and try to learn to read properly, Amanda.
It will save you making endless silly comments.
I said you only trust sources who already agree with you.
It’s a GREAT way to stay an Atheist. Keep it up!
I actual fact that is entirely false.
I initially believed Moses was a real historical character. I thought I have mentioned this previously?
Granted I never believed all that magic crap but there seemed no reason to doubt the other stuff.
Was only when I needed some background for a satirical piece I was writing that I thought I better do a bit of background checking.
Turns out it is ALL pretty much a crock of rose fertilizer.
Sheesh! What did I know right?
Even Albright couldn’t match up the bible tale of the Exodus with the real world of archaeology. And boy oh boy did he try.
And neither has any religious motivated archaeologist.
At some point the midden always hits the windmill.
The biblical tale of the Exodus and conquest is fiction.
Accept it and deal with it.
Lol. If I were talking to an actual, informed individual, I might consider it.
But you’re a Google wannabe.
Accept it. And deal with it.
Oh, really?
I must take the word of someone who probably had to look up Albright after she read my comment!
Seriously, try your hand at writing for your old man.
You might turn out to be very good.
Take my word that you are biased?
What does Albright have to do with that?
All they have to do is read your quotes… You refuse to read or listen to anyone who is religious UNLESS they happen to agree with you.
Your quotes condemn you.
Hilarious! Oh, and as in all likelihood you don’t have any of his books you will just have to Google.
It won’t get you goal time for a first offence, and I won’t tell. I promise.
I suggest this as your understanding of the history of biblical archaeology is so redundant it is appalling.
So, please, for the gods’ sake, suspend your presuppositional religious beliefs just for one evening and do a little genuine research.
Nothing wrong with Google as a first stop.
Grab a coffee, put your feet up, watch a few videos by folk like Dever an Finkelstein, and learn something that doesn’t feature frakking Jesus of Bloody Nazareth.
Speaking of Google, I challenge any Christians still reading to look up “Arkenaten.”
You’ll laugh.
And there we go. Showed up for the childish ignorant little fundy she is we go straight to the ‘Let’s find something about Ark for the 15,000 followers.”
Anything in particular I can help you with? We all know how biased Google users are right?
I wonder, if we Google Amanda B would we also find something to laugh at?
“Did you mean Akhenaten?”
No. I meant Arkenaten.
But Doug/Ark meant “Akhenaten” when he created his avatar.
LOL!
Researched Albright yet?
How about Bryant g Wood and Kitchen?
I researched them weeks ago… when you and JZ first started bringing up the historicity of the Bible.
And that’s when I realized neither of you knows how to do anything except quote people out of context who seem to agree with you…
And that the REAL experts quibble about this stuff all the time.
And I just don’t care.
So you only became aware of them when a pair of atheists brought them to your attention!
Don’t feel so bad. I was ignorant of all this archaeological stuff as well for years.
You’ll get used to it.
But it is a poor show that you consider you have the high ground to slag off everything these experts say and yet you only became ”enlightened” a couple of weeks ago.
Try also researching Kenyon and how she proved that the destruction of Jericho could not possibly have happened as described in the bible, even though that charlatan, Bryant Wood tried to re date the entire episode and put forward some hokum evidence in an effort to fit the bible story.
Finkelstein and Dever are just two examples and they have practically devoted their entire lives to archaeology. Dever in particular got involved, like Albright, expressly to prove the truth of the bible.
His father was a minister, as I am sure you are aware after researching about him a couple of weeks ago.
And neither Albright or Dever were able to march the biblical tale and the hard evidence and this is why Dever eventually deconverted.
YOu see, Amanda, the truth is the biblical tale is simply a work of Historical Fiction.
And when you recognise this fact and ponder it for a whole you will eventually realise the ramifications for your own faith and especially the character Jesus of Nazareth.
And you do care, as the more you are made aware of, the more you realise that you are treading on eggshells.
And as I mentioned to your dad, at some point you might want to start having dialogue with as many deconverts as possible because when the house of cards collapses you will need all the support you can get.
Ark, I’m not reading another wall of text today.
I appreciate all of your outrageous, Atheist-Fundamentalist statements. People who are interested in the topic can fact-check you and laugh.
But the rest of us don’t care. It’s enough to know that you’re a wannabe. Every time you’ve tried talking on a topic that I DO care about, you’ve demonstrated you are a pseudo-intellectual. I have no reason to believe anything you say regarding archaeology–a topic about which I know almost nothing and which I don’t care about.
That this is true is so blatantly evident every time the subject is raised.
In fact you demonstrate you ignorance every time you comment.
And this is likely of a great many people.
However, the intelligent ones quite often use this ignorance as a catalyst to expand their horizons and as can be shown by numerous examples, the hard facts of archaeology are sometimes the key that unlocks the truth.
Go read a few more blogs of deconverted christian fundamentalists.
That you choose to brush this off with contempt has absolutely no effect whatsoever on the facts or on archaeology.
In truth the simple fact that this has been brought to your attention has already had an effect.
You cannot unlearn this, and neither will it go away.
It has been pointed out with evidence that what you believe is simply historical fiction.
And this you simply cannot refute.
*yawn*
Smile… Ridicule all you want.
The archaeology ain’t going away.
But Christianity will.
Historical Fiction, Amanda.
Remember those two words.
As the great Jimi Hendrix once sang …
”And so castles made of sand, slip into the sea … eventually.”
LOL!
Capitals too. You must really be on the edge today.
LOL!
Smile…
“…neither Albright or Dever were able to march the biblical tale and the hard evidence and this is why Dever eventually deconverted.”
Where did you get the idea that Dever deconverted?
Where on earth did you get the idea he didn’t?
You claimed that he deconverted because of his archaeological findings. I’m not just gonna take your word for it. You’ve not proven to be a reliable source of information in the past.
Then as you don’t believe me to be a reliable source do the research yourself.
It isn’t that difficult. Even for you.
Remember, you are the Christian and you couldn’t possibly be a victim of your own credulity. You are a follower of Jesus of Nazareth, after all.
And as your entire raison d’etre is a stake here, you surely don’t want to be the victim of some atheist scam, right?
And surely you are a lot more informed than your daughter, who has admitted just how ignorant she is in th8is regard, and claims she doesn’t care …”LOL”
And I adjure you, please tell me what you dig up. And provide references as well, if you can.
Wouldn’t want to discover that Dever is still a Christian, now would we?
That would be a bit of a whoops moment.
I am now on tenterhooks….
Off you go.
Tell me how you know Dever deconverted. You made the claim.
You’re proving why you’re not a reliable source of information.
Interesting.
You wish to doubt that the sources I read on Dever are unreliable yet you claim veracity of the bible.
And you cannot see the irony?
Oh, well.
Seriously. It isn’t that big a deal, Branyan.
Those following this thread might well not agree with my views but some will be cringing at you making such a jerk of yourself.
Whether you accept anything I say or not means zip.
Y0ur worldview is based on lies.
That is a fact.
And archaeology is one area that is proving to be the undoing of your religion.
You can take the pis out of me all you want but you can’t hide from the truth.
The evidence refutes your religion.
And that is a fact.
You haven’t given me any sources.
And you cannot see the irony?
See? Positive claims abound.
He simply doesn’t SUPPORT those claims with anything except the statement “That’s a fact.” lol.
Let’s be more clear next time when we accuse Ark of never making positive claims.
He does.
All the time.
You’re right.
And that’s a fact.
You don’t trust me., remember? Look them up your self.
And let’s not forget, you’re smart enough not to fall for credulous nonsense. You’re a Christian.
Go for it tiger.
Got to turn in in a few minutes so please hurry up.
I don’t trust you BECAUSE you won’t give me your resources.
You’re asking me to research YOUR claims! That’s not how this works, Doug.
You won’t provide references because you are talking out your ass.
And now the insults- you’re getting good at it. I notice you become very frustrated after a while.
Did you have a name you wanted me to call you by the way? You haven’t responded yet.
It happens quite quickly when Mike comments. He really irks you for some reason?
So, type in Dever’s name – maybe even type something specific – and it will come up nice and clear on Google.
If you have any trouble with this, let me know?
Read all three of these over the last year or two?
Not convinced at all.
Certainly neither Strobel or Wallace provided evidence that hasn’t been soundly refuted more times than I can imagine.
Strobel certainly sells a lot of books.
Wallace: from his wiki page.
…after investigating the gospels as potential eyewitness accounts to the life of Jesus.
Which we know, they are not , of course.
Flew admitted to deism. And I am sure you will remember the whole unsavoury affair involving Habermas, surely?
Have you any more?
Maybe people who have converted because of sound irrefutable evidence and not emotional reasons?
So you’re rejecting the converted atheists. Fair enough.
Why do you think I will be moved by the testimony of deconverted Christians?
“Certainly neither Strobel or Wallace provided evidence that hasn’t been soundly refuted more times than I can imagine.”
Can you provide one example of this refuted evidence?
And I’m still waiting for to you support your claim about William Dever.
Off you go!
I gave you one in the comment.
Read it again, Banyan.
Gave me one what?
”Can you provide one example of this refuted evidence?”
Wallace: from his wiki page.
…after investigating the gospels as potential eyewitness accounts to the life of Jesus.
Which we know, they are not , of course.
You made that up, Doug.
Just like you made up your William Dever comment.
Made what up Branyan?
Smile…
You made up the statement from Wallace’s wiki. It’s a complete fabrication. Like your comment about Dever deconverting.
Nothing you say is true, Doug. That’s not an insult. It’s just a statement of fact.
Why would I make up the wiki statement?
It can be checked.
Go check it.
You would make up a wiki statement to trick us into thinking you have something smart to offer.
I say you’re a liar.
You can prove me wrong by posting a link to that wiki page.
Can’t be bothered .
Type it in Google.
Or don’t.
Google says you’re lying too.
You fall asleep, Doug?
You’re a liar.
Your credibility is shot.
We can’t trust anything you say.
Google that.
Really?
J. Warner Wallace – Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Warner_Wallace
James “Jim” Warner Wallace (born June 16, 1961) is an American homicide detective and … after investigating the gospels as potential eyewitness accounts to the life of Jesus. … In Alive: A Cold-Case Approach to the Resurrection (David C. Cook, 2014), Wallace investigates the accounts of the resurrection of Christ and …
Did you notice the relevant line?
Tell me,can you think of the vernacular term when one wants to suggest to a person that they have sex and travel?
Have a day.
Smile…
That’s not J. Warner Wallace’s wiki. Anybody could have written that page.
AND I don’t see the quote about the gospels not being eyewitness accounts.
You’re a liar.
Have a day.
It must be the other J .Warner Wallace then, right?
I did not realise there were two with the same name who wrote a book with same title.
Sincere apologies.
Can you offer a link to the J. Warner Wallace you were referring to that wrote the other Cold Case Christianity?
Thanks.
You are a liar.
End of story.
I just thought of something!
You know what we’ve learned today, Doug?
We’ve learned that YOU are the one with the mythological worldview. Your dogma isn’t intellectual or scientific at all! It’s nothing but falsehood.
Isn’t that a scream?
All this time you’ve been accusing Christians of being deluded when it’s YOU who blindly believe stuff without evidence!
Whew. I’m glad you stopped by today.
Good talk, Doug!
I think you mentioned something about your dad the other day, if i recall?
You do know that certain forms of mental illness can sometimes be hereditary?
Yes.
But you aren’t related to my dad so there’s got to be another explanation.
Now that is funny. I hosed myself.
Seriously, Branyan in all this time that is the very first fucking thing you have written that made me laugh.
Well done!
The last time I laughed like this was when Wally said my dad was the Devil!
You suppose Doug would go read the blogs of deconverted atheists in order to understand them better?
HA HA HAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA….
I’ve tried.
He won’t.
I know that.
I wonder what Universities Doug has taught at? Should we ask him?
I’m not sure how Doug knows that William G. Dever is a deconvert either… Might be fun to ask him for a link.
Go for it.
I’ve got sick kids today, so I don’t have time for another. 🙂
I truly am interested in your explanation of exactly what is right, and why, according to your worldview – as you are sympathetic to heathen stupidity.
You are truly interested in my explanation because you need something to refute. You are making me point! I appreciate it.
Atheists have no worldview to offer. You need me to make a statement so that you can disagree with it.
Ah, so in fact you have no sympathy for heathen stupidity or were you being personal?
I used ‘sympathy’ to mean ‘I understand why heathens are stupid’. I don’t feel bad for you because you’ve chosen stupidity.
The only positive claim you will make is an ad hominem. You’ll accuse me of some deficiency. You will not engage my ideas.
Now, now. That’s not totally true, JB.
Sometimes our Atheist friends make positive claims! Like how Ark claimed Jesus might not have existed at all… lol. And when he said “Every, single dictionary would agree” with his definition of Atheism.
Lol, again.
In Ark’s defense, he would make more positive claims if you would stop exposing his silliness every time he does. Let him believe you won’t check his facts, and then he’ll start making positive claims again!
I meant he doesn’t advance claims about what he believes. His entire worldview is the expression of what he DOESN’T BELIEVE.
It’s void.
Right. He doesn’t SUPPORT his positive claims.
He does make the from time to time. 🙂
That’s why he’s my favorite.
Some of his past, positive claims include:
“Rape is an act of violence/ attempt to control and therefore morally reprehensible.”
“No archaeologist considers the biblical tale of Moses and the Exodus historical.”
and
“…evolution explains everything I need.”
So, again, if we stopped calling him out for those silly statements, maybe we’d get more of them!
And what do you regard as my chosen stupidity?
I always engage your ideas. You simply refuse to accept any terms other than your own.
Atheism is stupid.
You never engage my ideas. You just insist that Christianity is fiction while offering nothing as an alternative belief.
I have never >/em>insisted that Christianity is fiction, Branyan.
Don’t be so bloody stupid.
Christianity is real.
What it is based upon is fiction.
It’s foundational tenets, and the character, Jesus of Nazareth.
Try to learn to understand the difference.
It might just help you understand a lot better.
Explain why you need an alternative belief?
I cannot think of a single Christian deconvert who insisted this was a prerequisite.
Ta-dah!
It’s almost like you’re TRYING to make me look smart.
“What it is based upon is fiction.
It’s foundational tenets, and the character, Jesus of Nazareth.”
And then, instead of engaging my ideas, you ask me another question:
“Explain why you need an alternative belief?”
Just call me a name, Ark.
That’s the best you’ve got.
Ta- Dah!
It’s almost as if you are going out of your way to behave stupidly, Branyan.
Please outline which foundational tenets of Christianity you regard as factual.
As I’ve explained, I always engage your ideas. You just don’t like the terms of engagement.
Also, as you seem so hung up on an alternative belief, why not try yoga?
Good for mind and body; might help with your sin/shame /guilt issues so that’s a bonus for a kick off.
Unless you are one of those really screwed in the head fundamentalists who think Yoga practitioners are some sort of Devil Cult?
As I am feeling magnanimous this evening, what name would you like me to call you?
Pick an name, any name …
Yes! Yoga often DOES help the mind and body… (Those are two different things, you know.)
Oops. Tildeb better get in here and tell you what a good Atheist is supposed to believe about the mind before you dig another hole.
Please outline which foundational tenets of Christianity you regard as non-factual.
Why, John, all of them of course.
Still thinking of a name you wish me to call you?
Cool.
Then I believe all of them are factual.
See how profoundly interesting it is when we let you ask the questions?
Yes, but you have no evidence to support a single one.
Thus you are obliged to make shit up.
And this is the purpose of indoctrination. Just look at you and your daughter!
And this is why deconverts initially go a bit loopy when they catch on that they have been force fed this garbage, often from childhood.
Seriously, JB, you really need to chat to a whole bunch of former fundamentalists.
There are several that will guide you gently, who are sympathetic to theistic credulity, because they have been exactly where you are right now and suffered just as you are doing right now.
It will open your eyes and likely make you incredibly angry at first, especially when you too realise just what you have allowed yourself to believe.
Norm Geisler and Kenneth Kitchen are not the be all and end all of your religion.
Reality is so much sweeter.
I think George Whitfield was recorded as having this conversation with a fellow, but I could be wrong:
“What do you believe about God?”
“I believe what my church believes.”
“What does your church believe?”
“My church believes what I believe.”
“What do you and your church believe?”
“We both believe the same thing.”
If you need someone else to explain your faith for you, not even you know what you believe.
John,
Funny thing.
I just started a new job five days ago at a brand new restaurant.
One of the other cooks, a young lady (actually.everyone is starting to seem young to me these days…) asked me “Do you have a religion?”
I was pleased at the question, and decided to have fun with it and said “I am a Baptist”. Yes, I was lazy, but it would cut to the chase and likely get a few fun questions or stones thrown at me if they knew anything about the kinds of Baptists out there these days.
But instead, she just gave me an odd look.
So I asked her. “How about you?”, and she said “Christian.”
I said “What type of Christian would that be?” I got the same “dog with cocked head” look, and she said “Christian Christian.”
Then it was my turn to look like a German Shepherd. “Oh, okay.” I replied, “And what church to you go to?”
“Inspire Church.” she answered, nodding as if that explained it all.
Our conversation got cut off by the rude interruption of work, so I have yet to go any deeper.
But as i observed her and her boyfriend over the next few days, I was less curious about her Inspire Church faith, as the “Christian Christian” swore like a sailor at the smallest of things, avoided work when she could, and stood around during cleaning at closing time.
Now, I am far from perfect. But people do notice that I am not like the other children, and eventually people comment on me and how I am a “nice guy”. I really am not, and have to work very hard at it, keeping my sarcasm and my tendency to let my attitude slip, at bay. But I strive to let my faith drive my behavior and speech, to make people eventually ask what the deal is with me. Then, in this God-hating modern world, they have given me the opening to talk about my faith. They asked, right? That way, I won’t get a shocked facial expression when I tell people that I am a follower of Jesus and that is why I behave as I do. I am setting them up for something that is hopefully consistent. Too many times in the past, I have been embarrassed to talk about my faith, since my practice was less-than-congruent with my belief.
That is why I use the phrase “follower of Jesus” instead of just “believer in Jesus”.
I am a *practicing* Christian, and will keep practicing until I get it perfect. It will be in heaven, but that won’t stop me from striving here on earth.
I am looking forward to sharing the details of my faith at work, and praying that my actions will show that I really believe all the Bible and Jesus stuff I will say.
Dave
Philippians 1: 27-29 (ESV) – Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel, and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God. For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.
P.S. – the haikus yesterday made my posts shorter… maybe I should go back to that.
No! Your post was just right.
Excellent break from the trolls of late. Thank you.
Ben
Ben,
Thanks.
I always fear that people will flee from my Great Walls of Text and I will speak to empty virtual air.
Dave
Ecclesiastes 5:2 (ESV) – Be not rash with your mouth, nor let your heart be hasty to utter a word before God, for God is in heaven and you are on earth. Therefore let your words be few.
I sort of like your walls Dave
Wally,
Thanks for the encouragement! Someday, I may attempt a blog myself, and get a lot of my rants out of my system.
I also appreciate your blog posts. When you write something, I never feel the need to skip over it as a re-run, as oft happens in these here parts.
Dave
1 Thessalonians 5:11 (ESV) – Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.
Thanks back and blessings to you Dave.
Well said! I agree here.
“By all means, answer the question;
“Which church do you go to?”
Saint Patrick’s Church
“Then answer the more important question:
“Why?”
I go to Church because God loves me, and I love him back.
I suppose with that reason, I could also go to a different church. E.g., Saint Mary’s Church
🙂
Could you go to a protestant church for the same reason?
I see my smiley face at the end of my last post was converted into a square.
To answer your question, yes, of course. I think its a great reason to go to any church.