A quick reminder that one of the dumbest things you can say is:
“I don’t need religion to know right from wrong.”
Of course you do.
But don’t take my word for it.
Learn from the mistakes of others!
STEVE: I got involved in a discussion about the standing atheists have in Christian’s minds and a commenter stated this:
“Denying all religious convictions makes atheists untrustworthy. You suggested that everything about people is tentative. That is the issue I described from the beginning. Morality and ethics aren’t fixed in atheism. There are no rules for good or bad behavior.”
The conversation was NOT about the standing of atheists in Christian’s minds. The conversation was about why outspoken atheists don’t get elected to public office.
My comment follows and it is a thing of exquisite beauty. It succinctly explains why the average person is reluctant to put an atheist in public office.
STEVE: To which I responded “Please list the “rules for good and bad behavior” provided by your particular denomination (not Christians in general, but by your church). A link to a web page is fine, you don’t have to copy them.”
This was a little snarky of me as I believe (not religiously, just secularly) that most churches avoid listing these things explicitly.
His response to the comment that atheists have no rules for good behavior is…to ask me to list Christian rules for good behavior.
Then he strangely suggests that churches avoid listing rules for moral behavior. Apparently, Steve doesn’t realize the Bible contains a bunch of moral guidelines. So many they can’t fit into blog comment.
Steve proceeded to list a few more snarky suggestions for good behavior. He then asked the other atheists to chime in with their moral suggestions. It was a sensational party!
NAN: Why be bothered by DETAILS? Much more important to quote John 3:16 (and any other scriptures that seem to fit the occasion) so all us heathens can be SAVED!!!
Haha! Get it?
Heathen don’t need to be saved! Heathen haven’t done anything wrong because they have no moral guidelines! Sin doesn’t exist.
Let’s all point and laugh at Jesus!
TABOO: Whatever takes the least amount of effort or brain-power, eh? 
Yes. The least amount of brain-power is all we can expect from the heathen.
Notice that nobody has offered any responses to the post. They’re supposed to be talking about morality.
NAN: Brain power? I’m not sure some believers even know that those words mean. It’s all about quoting those Jesus Saves scriptures.
This is coming from the person who has yet to respond to the subject of the article.
In Nan’s mind, calling Christians “stupid” is high-brow intellectualism.
STEVE: Is that the one that says that their god sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself? Surely there are less convoluted ways for such a powerful being to accomplish such a petty goal. He could snap his fingers and start over with an entire crop of new humans without the rebelliousness, for example.
Steve has completely forgotten his reason for writing the article. It was “the standing atheists have in Christian’s minds”, remember?
The reason Christians think poorly of atheists is because they constantly say stupid things like “their god sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself”.
FLORIDA: Can’t believe you spent as much time and effort as you did with the individual in question. His entire argument boils down to the same old atheists can’t be moral or ethical because they don’t have a fairy wog dog to tell them right from wrong.
JB: For the record, “the individual in question” never suggested that atheists can’t be moral or ethical. What “the individual” said, is that Atheism contains no moral principles. This exercise of “Writing a List of Christian Rules for Good and Bad Behavior” demonstrates the point. You cannot write a list of ‘Atheist Rules for Good Behavior’ without borrowing ideas from religion (usually Christianity).
You atheists don’t have a fairy wog dog to tell you right from wrong. So where did you get the idea that it’s wrong to have sex with alter boys?
NAN: Before accepting moral standards from a god, you should at least be able to show that particular god exists.
STEVE: We cannot write an “Atheist Rules for Good and Bad Behavior” because atheism isn’t a philosophy and has no basis for doing so. There are, however, secular rules for good and bad behavior that do quite well. And stop trying to hijack morality and ethics. All of the precepts in your scripture pre-existed your scriptures and then a great many Greek and Roman ideas were “absorbed” into Christianity after its conception.
Regarding sex with altar boys, I didn’t get it from religion. The Catholic Church for the longest time declared it was not right for married couples to have sex, unless certain prescriptions were followed. I got is from imagination. I placed myself in that position and asked myself whether I wanted to be that boy. I also have read quite a few accounts by those so abused and had emotional responses of disgust and outrage. I needed no Christian education for any of that.
JB: I don’t want to misunderstand you. Are you claiming that morality is determined by the majority?
After a couple back and forth exchanges, I wanted to make sure Steve was aware of how ludicrous his position actually is. I figured my question was so shockingly direct, he would balk a little bit.
…I was wrong.
STEVE: Yep! Can you imagine what the US would be like if it weren’t predominantly Christian?
Imagine you saw a boy kick a dog for no obvious reason … and no one reacted one way or another. What do you think would happen to the rates of “dog kicked for no apparent reason?” And if this majoritarianism were not true, why then do Christians teach moral and ethical behavior?
DAVID: What exactly is Christian morality? Can you list some of them? Are you referring to the 10 commandments? Perhaps some places in the bible?
DAVID: No, Atheism itself cannot comment on morality as explained.
Why are atheists any different from anyone else in how they get moral convictions? Did you get all of your moral convictions through religion? Did you learn them as you grew up? Did you learn any of them thru your experience in life? Did you learn any from your interactions at school? from friends? Maybe you learned some through what is deemed appropriate and inappropriate where you live. If human civilization is (random number) 10,000 years old, civilization has had that many years to learn by trial and error. Was it an acceptable practice at one time to have slaves, was it accepted that men were superior to women, whites superior to blacks? Indians? Has our morality changed from when the aforementioned examples were considered “acceptable”?
Morality is simply what society finds acceptable or not acceptable. We may not always agree on what is right and wrong in morality but a secular system does not allow one religious views on morality to apply unjustly to those who do not follow that specific religious view. Why as a follower of Buddhism should I have to follow Christian views on morality and visa versa.
Matt describes morality as “well being”. It is in our best interest to focus on the well being of all. Here is a recent episode that basically goes over his thoughts:
Atheism cannot comment on right and wrong.
Public officials must know right from wrong.
Atheists should never be elected to office.
***UPDATE***
Apparently, I’m not on the correct discussion board for talking about morality. And I’m supposed to find people with “a background in morality”. Doesn’t David have experience with morality? He’s the guy who assured me it’s possible to be moral without religion.
He’s unable provide any substance so he concludes that I’m “messing with people”. Atheists are supposed to love questions. Apparently, asking David a question will get me comedy material.
38 Responses
Not a religion. Not a philosophy….what *is* Atheism?
It’s a dessert topping.
Oh John, you should have let me know you were writing a blog about my comments, I could have clarified my comments to you, we could have co-wrote this blog! Instead, you only posted part of the discussion.
When I asked you for a list of Christian Morality, you resisted because you knew that those examples preceded Christianity. The point to my questions ; We all have the same source of morality. It is what society taught us.
My very first statement to you was that Atheism is just a rejection of the theist claim of a god, it does not cover morality, that does not mean that atheists are not moral. You agreed that atheists can be moral people and theists can be immoral.
You wrote: “Because atheists, unlike the vast majority of human beings, deny all religious convictions! ” is untrue. The atheist only rejects the theist claim of a god. But it begs the question, what are these religious convictions you claim? An atheist is free to take “religious convictions” from any source they want.
“Were I to be the founder of a new sect, I would call them Apiarians, and, after the example of the bee, advise them to extract the honey of every sect. my fundamental. principle would be … that we are to be saved by our good works which are within our power, and not by our faith which is not within our power.” – Thomas Jefferson
Our Supreme court building (Secular) has depictions of Moses, Confucius and Solon. (and various depictions of law and philosophy) Like Jefferson, I’m not limited in my sources of philosophy (or morality). In fact, I have studied world religions and philosophies.
Your conclusion that Atheists can’t know right and wrong is faulty and incorrect. I would even argue that an atheist would be a benefit of a secular government especially when a decision has to be made between two conflicting religions. Since you have an opinion who should not be able to be in Government, maybe you can give us a list of those religions, philosophies and worldviews you find acceptable?
I didn’t know I was going to write about the conversation. The link to the conversation is provided so you aren’t being taken out of context.
“Your conclusion that Atheists can’t know right and wrong is faulty and incorrect. I would even argue that an atheist would be a benefit of a secular government especially when a decision has to be made between two conflicting religions.”
Thank you! That is exactly the reason atheists should never be elected! The last thing I want is a smug politician telling me that I’ve got to set aside my religious convictions for the “common good”.
You presume that atheists are wiser than any two conflicting religious ideas.
I don’t want to cloud the difference between Atheism and Secularism but that’s the premise of our Government. It attempts to be secular so when issues between religions occur, they can hand down a decision without the influence of one religion or the other.
Of course you didn’t answer the question on who should be in Government. Based on your answer, you don’t want anyone but someone in your own religion to make a decision between two different religious parties.
As I have said, repeatedly, religion is the foundation of civilization. Government doesn’t exist without religion. The idea that government can make decisions apart from the influence of religion is wrong.
Atheists claim morality “without religion”. That’s why I will never vote for an atheist in any public office. Atheists are not good thinkers. I have voted for numerous people who do not share my specific religion. I will not vote for a person who claims to have no religion.
I’m getting the feeling Dave really hasn’t thought about this before. He seems to have an awful lot of confidence, for someone who said Atheism can’t comment on morality AND that Atheists make the best judges of which religions are more moral…
Humbly, I request that you be as nice as possible while you try to explain it–so that we don’t get sidetracked by “you are so mean!”
I’m doing my level best to be nice.
…which means I’ll be accused of “song and dance” avoidance.
I didn’t know I was going to write about the conversation. The link to the conversation is provided so you aren’t being taken out of context.
“Your conclusion that Atheists can’t know right and wrong is faulty and incorrect. I would even argue that an atheist would be a benefit of a secular government especially when a decision has to be made between two conflicting religions.”
Thank you! That is exactly the reason atheists should never be elected! The last thing I want is a smug politician telling me that I’ve got to set aside my religious convictions for the “common good”. You presume that atheists are wiser than all “religious” people.
Here’s one of the religious philosophies that I hold: “Men are made in the image of God.” That one changes everything.
Can you quote where John concluded that Atheists can’t know right and wrong?
He actually specified in the post that he’s NOT saying that… So I’m afraid you may still be missing the point.
But if you can provide a quote, then I’ll understand better.
” “I don’t need religion to know right from wrong.”
Of course you do.”
and, this one is in different context but in his conclusion:
“Atheism cannot comment on right and wrong.”
in the other blog:
“You atheists don’t have a fairy wog dog to tell you right from wrong”
You understand that’s not the same as saying “Atheists don’t know right from wrong” don’t you?
Do you not understand what he’s saying, or do you think everyone else won’t?
Why do the atheists keep complaining about comments being closed here?
Is anyone having trouble making comments? Or are they lying about being shut out of the conversation so they won’t have to admit they’re afraid?
There is no option from the wordpress reader to reply. I didn’t find the comments until I went directly to your page.
Ah! I didn’t know that. Thank you! I’ll check into it.
Nooooo!
Is our vacation from Zande over???
😭
Some of the atheists are whining about comments being closed. Have you noticed anything weird about the comments?
I had to pull my own comment out of moderation last week. There weren’t any links attached. But I haven’t seen any others in spam lately…
So who knows?
Of course, like a reasonable human being, the first thing I did when I saw my comment “pending” was to scream “CENSORSHIP!!!!”
Instead of asking if there were tech issues…
It may be caused my the social comment plugin I’m using. It’s supposed to make it easier to log in with Facebook, etc. I’m going to disable it for awhile and see if anyone complains…
If, by complains, you mean “accuses you of censorship” there’s a strong likelihood.
Apparently, the reader is not allowing comments. Can you see the comment thingy from the WordPress reader?
I think so…?
Go check!!
Immediately!
I don’t actually know what “thingy” you’re talking about???
Maybe call me.
“He could snap his fingers and start over with an entire crop of new humans without the rebelliousness, for example.”
Well, that’s totally what I would do! I mean, I have a list and everything. The problem being, yes, but is it moral? That’s way too big of a question for most atheists, but if you look at the truth of it, we have just reasoned that the best way to solve the problem of evil is to simply eradicate all of the humans and start over. So our morality that is allegedly so vastly superior to God’s, is actually always just going to wind up at rationalizing mass genocide. Or perhaps, enslaving the entire human race and creating a bunch of mindless zombies incapable of rebellion.
Humility is hard sometimes, but truthfully, God’s ways really are way better than ours.
Certainly God could just wipe us out and start over again. The problem is, He loves us.
If we were just broken coffee machines it’d be easy to replace us. But God decided to put a little of Himself into us and doggone it, He’s grown attached. He’s fond of Steve, JZ, David, Nan, Taboo and all the other wretched, rebellious pagans.
It’s funny how the more atheists talk, the more they prove your point . Not only can we not trust atheist’s because of their convoluted and subjective morality, we cannot trust their cognitive facilities either. After all, unguided and accidental natural selection does not serve truth, it only serves survival. And since they’re also “slaves to their DNA” (Dawkins), they will do whatever it takes to survive (make better genes), even if it means doing absolutely horrific things in the name of progress. We only have the 20th century to prove this to be true. And, hey, if the majority says it’s okay, it’s okay, right? Apparently, Nazi Germany gave us a great example of this superior type of morality. Good thing we don’t have religion getting in the way!
I posted the link to the whole sordid conversation. Atheists are shockingly anti-intellectual. They repeatedly ignore questions about their beliefs. (They won’t even admit to having beliefs.)
I encourage anyone who is contemplating leaving their faith to read the whole conversation. Atheism is the dumbest thing mankind has ever invented.
Yes, it is a great reason to quit atheism, too. What’s crazy to me is that people like Taboo allegedly went to seminary. Makes me wonder if he was sleeping in class. He sure doesn’t get Christianity at all. I’m not even sure what religion he’s rejecting. But these guys are great at avoiding the subject and burning down their straw men and congratulating each other for doing so.
As you know, I also asked them on my post to show where any moral code can be found that originates from secularism. No one answered because the answer is obvious. They’re cowards when confronted with their own incoherence.
I believe I asked you where you got the idea that slavery was wrong.
You never answered.
What do you mean by slavery?
Do you mean indentured servants under contract? Or do you mean captives held against their will forced to do labor?
Mankind did not invent atheism. Satan did – and he doesn’t believe in it himself. He just did to mess with us.
Nazi’s were Christian.
Martians are Christians too.
Mel, I highly recommend you link to your excellent post about Nazism. I can’t remember what it was called. But I know JZ commented hundreds of times because he needed to shout above the sound of his brain exploding.
Rather than diving down the rabbit hole here, I bet some of our readers would like to see that conversation. It will tell them everything they need to know about Zande.
I used my imagination to put myself in the place of a person who owns a cat, and I decided I would hate it. So I now believe owning a cat is evil and wicked and should be against the law.
On the other hand, CNN tells me that the country is full of racists and white supremacists. After all, the racist majority elected our racist president so he could build a racist wall. So…that means racism isn’t immoral anymore! Because morality is determined by popular vote (or electoral college).
I’m starting a movement to kill black cats. It should be very popular among our atheist friends. I feel like they would be morally obligated to join.
All you need is 51% agreement in the population and this will be morally correct.
For the sake of diversity, the movement must also include grey cats, white cats, speckled cats, tabby cats …