The sun rises…
…you don’t need to believe in planetary motion.
Water becomes steam…
…you don’t need to believe in evaporation.
Fire consumes a candle…
…you don’t need to believe in rapid oxidation.
Calculations yield consistent results…
…you don’t need to believe in mathematics.
Dropped stones fall…
…you don’t need to believe in gravity.
Order, reason, and logic fill the universe…
…you don’t need to believe these things require God.
Truth stands independent of your opinions.
Truth stands independent of your wishes.
Absolute, objective truth exists.
Denying objective truth requires accepting an objective truth.
…but you don’t need to believe that.
Truth doesn’t need your belief.
229 Responses
I think you should just substitute the voice of Charlie Brown’s teacher for some of these posts.
Oh man, the comment section was a hoot today! JZ’s censornoia is hysterical. Hasn’t he worked out by now that this is the last place on the internet to censor? So embarrassing, I nearly felt bad for him. Reminded me of watching my youngest siblings argue.
“You took my toy!”
“No I didn’t.”
“YES YOU DID, IT WAS HERE AND NOW IT’S GONE.”
“I didn’t take your toy.”
“YOU DID! Who else could’ve taken it??”
“…”
I’m pretty sure he STILL thinks my dad and I have multiple “avatars” so we can conduct conversations with ourselves…
But, I’m not going to conduct the troubleshooting investigation on that one. He’s going to have to figure out his “IP Address” issues on his own. lol.
Without faith, all is conspiracy!
What’cha think?
No words!!!
HAHAHAHAHAA!
I like how he points his little toes…
Very graceful. 🙂
Just a first attempt.
I’ve got the rigged figure now so the dances can become more complex.
I think I’ll do a pantomime next.
I’ll die!
Lol!
LOL! I can’t stop watching it!
JB –
As I’ve mentioned to you in the past – I believe Ernest Borgnine should play the role of JZ in “The Comedy Sojourn – The Movie – The Musical”. Mr. Borgnine would of course make the character much more likable.
Here’s a test shot.
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/TheCrimsonQuarterWit/ernest%20borgnine%20as%20jz_zpsvryzmmed.jpg
~CQW
This is another great post!
It is deep and requires some deep thinking in order to relish.
It took me a while to be able to muster up a reply.
The fundamental difference between God’s people and atheists centers around humility and hubris.
God’s people are humble before wisdom because they know it is a gift from God.
The atheist hallucinates himself full of wisdom and its master.
Humility brought about Christian Western Civilization.
Atheist hubris brought about the greatest mass murders in human history.
A few years back I was reading William Lane Craig. It was some chapter where he addresses the humanist idea that we can be ‘good without God’. Craig said, in essence, you can be good without BELIEF in God. But God necessarily exists in order for ‘Good’ to exist. It’s such a simple concept but I hadn’t thought of it in those terms before. Obviously, things are only true FOR ME if I believe them to be true. But objective things are true without my belief. As you said, this requires some humility to accept it.
I’m going to reblog your post from today about God being love. I read it in church (when I was supposed to be listening to the sermon) and thought it was a bulls-eye. Imagine the idea of God being love coming from LEVITICUS!!!
Hopefully, we can keep the useless trolls in the playpen in case the grown-ups want to talk.
John,
Thank you for the re-blog. I really appreciate that.
I was doing the same with your post last night when I was at Mass!
The tragic case of John Zande…
…he has really gone off the deep end since THE Donald was elected President of the United States.
I usually give him a free sand box to play in over at my place.
But last night, though he knows I’m one of those wily Catholics he became abusive toward Jesus’ mother Mary.
And he hit the homerun to hell by blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.
I had to delete his hatred lest he become a mill stone around my own neck to drag me down with him.
My goodness!
There is a lot of hatred out there.
Attention readers: Ark can’t stand to be ignored.
Please don’t feed the troll.
Oh, dear ….
@amanda
Since the very first encounter with this blog, which came about after ”meeting” your father on John’s blog, where he was as disingenuous and obnoxious then as he always is here, I have wondered what the purpose of this blog is?
Seriously,you do not really defend Christianity in any conventional sense, and in fact, most of the posts are simply poorly scripted vehicles to allow you to rant on about your ridiculous and ill-informed beliefs concerning atheism, morality and evolution.
And you champion/are an admirer of at least one seeming psychopath.
You never address issues directly, you never produce any evidence to back the claims you make, and often flatly reject scientific evidence where it directly contradicts your faith-based beliefs with evidence.
You claim to be Christian yet imply the bible is not the source of this belief.
Your christian followers are a mixed bag, from Young Earth Creationists such as James and Wally to the more (apparently) reasonable such as Gene.
So, it would interesting to know what is the purpose of this blog?
Amanda believes the god of Christianity, Yhwh, not only keeps secrets regarding what is right and what is wrong (what is moral and what is not), but has also gone out of its way to deliberately deceive people, as demonstrated in the Bible which says one thing about morality, but which is, according to Amanda, a lie.
A deliberate lie.
A lie that has produced a tremendous amount of (apparently) unnecessary suffering and death (murder) over thousands of years
If what Amanda says is true, the question then is this:
Is the Christian god, Yhwh, keeping secrets regarding what is right and what is wrong ethical?
JZ believes that kittens should be used as bait in dog fights.
It is–according to JZ–very fun to watch.
Amanda believes the god of Christianity, Yhwh, not only keeps secrets regarding what is right and what is wrong (what is moral and what is not), but has also gone out of its way to deliberately deceive people, as demonstrated in the Bible which says one thing about morality, but which is, according to Amanda, a lie.
A deliberate lie.
A lie that has produced a tremendous amount of (apparently) unnecessary suffering and death (murder) over thousands of years
If what Amanda says is true, the question then is this:
Is the Christian god, Yhwh, keeping secrets regarding what is right and what is wrong ethical?
You are acting insane. Truly.
Do you know that?
So, answer the question
Is Yhwh’s behaviour ethical?
Do you know that you’re acting insane?
Answer the question.
Answer the question, please.
Is Yhwh’s behaviour ethical?
I don’t take insane people seriously.
Please just answer the question put to you without the typical Branyan ONE-HUNDRED-COMMENT-DIVERSION-SONG-AND-DANCE.
Can you do that?
Is it within your capabilities?
Please.
As you laid it out, is Yhwh’s behaviour ethical?
IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT I SAY–YOU WILL POST WHATEVER YOU WANT AND DECLARE, “ACCORDING TO AMANDA….”
Just post the porno Jesus and be done with it.
Your credibility is shot.
Everyone knows you’re a joke.
And there is NOTHING you can say which will convince me you’re worth an actual answer ever, ever again.
LOL! Poor, pathetic, insane man.
Seems you’re finding it hard to defend what you believe… what you write.
Okay, by your evasion, it appears you’re conceding that Yhwh’s behaviour is anything but ethical.
What you described is unethical.
I agree.
Looks like you have develop another hypothesis.
That last one just crashed and burned. Badly.
There it is. The JZ song-and-dance pantomime. (How embarrassing!) 🙂
So…no porno Jesus?
Ethics.
Awkward.
Do you want to post the porno Jesus? Yes or no?
Don’t blame me for your blunder.
I do, however, look forward to your next attempt to defend your Christian god, Yhwh.
Just pay more attention to inventing something actually believable, OK.
I see.
You’re embarrassed.
By the way, if anyone is still reading–all of this is JZ’s desperate attempt to distract from his bizarre meltdown earlier this morning, where he blamed my dad for what ended up being JZ’s own stupid mistake. (I mean–he was really unhinged: WHY ARE YOU CENSORING?!, etc.) You should scroll up if you missed it. Hilarious.
Embarrassed by what?
Did I describe the UNETHICAL behaviour of a supposedly “good” god?
The whole situation gives a certain irony to JZ’s warning, “Don’t blame me for your blunder,” doesn’t it?
LOL!
From the man who said, “Why are you censoring??? That’s so cheap!!!!” even after we insisted we did no such thing.
LOL!
I admit my mistake.
I have no problem with that.
Can you?
And then he was asked, “Are you going to admit you made a mistake?” and…of course he wouldn’t (until just now)… LOL!
Do you think he’ll apologize?
I admit I made a mistake.
Can you?
I guess he’s too embarrassed to say he’s sorry.
How awkward.
Again, I admit my mistake.
Can you admit your proposition was poorly-thought-through and, self-evidently, fundamentally wrong?
Maybe, in Brazil, “I admit my mistake” means the same as “I’m sorry.”
I made a mistake. I was wrong. I’m tremendously sorry.
Can you admit your proposition was poorly-thought-through and, self-evidently, fundamentally wrong?
Fabulous!
But…
You’re still a joke with not a shred of credibility remaining. It’s time to find another wide-eyed Christian who actually feels they owe you an answer. Someone who will be horrified enough to censor your comments when you post porno Jesus…. someone who will ban you completely when they realize you’re a distraction from those more worth their time…
Here, we’re just going to keep giving you rope, and you’re going to keep hanging yourself. LOL!
I made a mistake. I was wrong. I’m tremendously sorry.
Can you admit your proposition was poorly-thought-through and, self-evidently, fundamentally wrong?
“there is NOTHING you can say which will convince me you’re worth an actual answer ever, ever again.”
OK, I’ll read your continued evasion as being:
“Yes, my proposition that Yhwh keeps secrets regarding his hidden objective moral truth was hopelessly, fundamentally, fatally flawed. I was wrong. It was a thoroughly retarded idea, now that I think about it.”
Great.
Or, are you happy worshipping an UNETHICAL god?
You wouldn’t be JZ, if you didn’t try to manipulate people into playing your game, by suggesting they are “evading” something or another, and then drawing whatever conclusion you were going to draw from the beginning.
It’s comforting to know that YOU–(unlike God, who is creative and tolerant as he deals with ever-changing humans)–YOU are always unflexible and unreasonable. 🙂
Repeat after me
“Yes, my proposition that Yhwh keeps SECRETS regarding his HIDDEN objective moral truth was hopelessly, fundamentally, fatally flawed. I was wrong. It was a thoroughly retarded idea, now that I think about it.”
LOL!
Poor fundy.
I understand EXACTLY why it bothers you that God changes his mind.
But, fear not! As long as there are fundamentalists in the Universe, there will be minds that always stay stubbornly, unwaveringly, concretely the same. You’ll never change! 🙂
Have I got this wrong?
Are you, in fact, happy worshipping an UNETHICAL god?
Which one is it?
Repeat after me:
“I’m mad that God changes his mind!”
As I said earlier: I’m not mad, but I would hazard to guess those millions of slaves and murdered gays who suffered tremendously over thousands of years might be…
Or, have I got this wrong, and you’re happy worshipping an UNETHICAL god?
Repeat after me:
“I’m mad that God changes his mind.”
As I said earlier: I’m not mad, but I would hazard to guess those millions of slaves and murdered gays who suffered tremendously over thousands of years might be…
Have I got this wrong?
Are you, in fact, upset because you believe God didn’t do the right thing, by allowing people to have free will?
Jumping to free will?
Weren’t you trying to defend Yhwh keeping secrets?
No. You came up with the “keeping secrets” pantomime.
Yes or no, do I have it wrong?
If you were in charge, would the only ETHICAL course of action be enforcing a one-size-fits-all plan, which humans could not affect with their own choices?
OK, here comes the typical Branyan ONE-HUNDRED-COMMENT-DIVERSION-SONG-AND-DANCE.
Can’t defend a position, evade, evade, evade, evade.
Sorry, but not interested.
Seen the dance.
It’s boring.
Look, here comes the typical JOHN ZANDE SONG AND DANCE DIVERSION SOMETHING SOMETHING EMBARRASSMENT SOMETHING.
Can’t be the one manipulating the conversation, evade, evade, evade.
Yes or no, do I have it wrong?
If you were in charge, would the only ETHICAL course of action be enforcing a one-size-fits-all plan, which humans could not affect with their own choices?
Isn’t an “objective moral truth” the very definition of one size fits all?
“Isn’t an ‘Objective moral truth’ the very definition of one size fits all?”
Is that what YOU think? LOL!
Yes or no:
The only just God is an unyielding God. Yes or no?
Yes or no:
Does your concept of an ETHICAL God require him to be unchanging when that also means “unmoving, dogged, obstinate, and uncompromising?”
Is that what you expect?
You’re questioning God’s ethics because He works WITH humans, and allows them to impact his plan? Is that right?
He’s unethical because he ADAPTS for us?
Errrum, aren’t you the one trying to say an “objective” (unmoving, fixed, forever) truth exists?
(albeit one that’s, apparently, a secret)
Are you going to answer the question, or shall I stop asking?
Does having an “objective” moral goal mean that God can never change his mind?
Yes or no?
Yhwh does not change.
That’s scripture.
You do worship Yhwh, don’t you?
SONG AND DANCE SONG AND DANCE SONG AND DANCE!!!
YES OR NO: Does your concept of an ETHICAL God require him to be unchanging when that also means “unmoving, dogged, obstinate, and uncompromising?”
Is that what you expect?
You’re questioning God’s ethics because He works WITH humans, and allows them to impact his plan and ADAPTS for their good?
Hey, don’t blame me if your god, Yhwh, contradicts you.
“Whatever is good and perfect comes to us from God above, who created all heaven’s lights. Unlike them, He never changes or casts shifting shadows” (James 1:17).
“The grass withers, and the flowers fade, but the word of our God stands forever” (Isaiah 40:8).
“I, the LORD, do not change” (Malachi 3:6)
You are a Christian, aren’t you?
Sorry, but you don’t get to make things up.
You seem to be shying away from my question and trying to figure out what *I* believe again. (Reminder: you don’t get answers from me.)
Are you going to answer my question to you?
Must an ETHICAL God (Yahweh, Lo, Frank, or any other) be unyielding?
I don’t get answers from you?
How embarrassing. You can’t even have an intelligent conversation unless you’re telling others what they believe.
LOL!
Does a God who changes his mind automatically mean he is UNETHICAL? Yes or No?
Must an ETHICAL God (Yahweh, Lo, Frank, or any other) be unyielding?
In matters of truth, yes. Witholding information would be unethical… especially when murdering people is involved.
Wouldnt you agree?
We withhold information from children all the time. Is that unethical?
Does that result in people being murdered?
Embarrassed, I see.
Your pantomime collapses again.
Does that result in people being murdered, Amanda?
You’re asking me questions again.
Use your own pea brain.
Are there situations where “withholding information from children” could result in someone getting hurt?
Don’t hurt yourself thinking.
We can get Violet in here to imagine all the times “witholding information” might be the morally correct thing to do, but I believe you MIGHT be able to do it yourself…
Can you think of such a situation, JOHN ZANDE?
Amanda, does that result in peole being murdered?
John Zande,
Can you understand what “I’m not answering questions” means?
Can YOU think of a reason why parents might withhold information from children, even if others get hurt?
Please just answer the question put to you without the typical Branyan ONE-HUNDRED-COMMENT-DIVERSION-SONG-AND-DANCE.
Can you do that?
Is it within your capabilities?
Please.
As you laid it out, is Yhwh’s behaviour (keeping secrets as to what is actually right and what is actually wrong) ethical?
PLEASE JUST ANSWER MY QUESTION WITHOUT YOUR TYPICAL ZANDE SONG AND DANCE!
Can you do that?
Is it within your capabilities?
Please.
As you’ve laid it out, must God tell humanity EVERYTHING he knows, ALL AT ONCE, even when humankind was in its infant stage? Is that the same as unethical?
OK, I’ll read your continued evasion as being:
Repeat after me
“Yes, my proposition that Yhwh keeps SECRETS regarding his HIDDEN objective moral truth was hopelessly, fundamentally, fatally flawed. I was wrong. It was a thoroughly RETARDED IDEA, now that I think about it.”
Great.
Or, are you happy worshipping an UNETHICAL god?
OK, I’ll read your continued evasion as, “I see that I’m in over my head when forced to answer questions…I’m a theological and philosophical lightweight.”
Great.
Or are you going to admit that you’re just unhappy that God didn’t expect the same level of responsibility from the Ancient Israelites as he does from YOU?
A little angry at Dad for going easy on the baby? Jealous?
Maybe this time?
Does witholding information from your children result in people being murdered?
Hello?
Ethical-Authoritarian JZ?
Are you going to admit that what you call “unethical” is simply your own, personal disapproval of God’s parenting throughout the ages? (LOL! Of course, you’ll never admit it! But it’s really fun to shout YES OR NO at you anyway…) 🙂
I read his continued evasion as:
“Whoooshy Whooosh Whoooosh Woooooooooooosh!”
It has been a rough day for The Windbag.
You watching Tildeb being roasted by his own thesis?
Yep… he’s back to using lots and lots and lots of words, to cover up his double-speak.
Am I the one witholding information that results in people being murdered?
Are you going to admit you’re a Theist who doesn’t like Yhwh, because of parenting disagreements? lol!
Does withholding information from your children result in people being murdered?
Yes or no, Amanda?
That was your equivalency exercise, wasn’t it?
Are you going to admit that you’re just unhappy that God didn’t expect the same level of responsibility from the Ancient Israelites as he does from YOU?
A little angry at Dad for going easy on the baby?
Does withholding information from your children result in people being murdered?
Yes or no, Amanda?
That was your equivalency exercise, wasn’t it?
Or are you going to admit that you’re just unhappy that God didn’t expect the same level of responsibility from the Ancient Israelites as he does from YOU?
A little angry at Dad for going easy on the baby? Jealous?
Does withholding information from your children result in people being murdered?
Yes or no, Amanda?
That was your equivalency exercise, wasn’t it?
You.
Will.
Not.
Get.
Any.
Answers.
From.
Me.
Maybe if/when you grow up, I’ll change my mind. 😉
Are you going to admit that you’re just unhappy that God didn’t expect the same level of responsibility from the Ancient Israelites as he does from YOU?
A little angry at Dad for going easy on the baby? Jealous?
Does withholding information from your children result in people being murdered?
Yes or no, Amanda?
That was your equivalency exercise, wasn’t it?
Let me answer it for you:
”No, withholding information from my children doesn’t result in people being murdered, or thousands of years of slavery, or pointless animal sacrifice. If it did, it would be thoroughly unethical.”
Or are you going to admit that you’re just unhappy that God didn’t expect the same level of responsibility from the Ancient Israelites as he does from YOU?
A little angry at Dad for going easy on the baby? Jealous?
Let me answer it for you:
“I don’t want to answer that question because I’m only comfortable talking about other people’s pantomimes instead of owning my own.”
Let me answer it for you:
”No, withholding information from my children doesn’t result in people being murdered, or thousands of years of slavery, or pointless animal sacrifice. If it did, MY ACTIONS would be thoroughly unethical.”
Let me answer it for you:
“I don’t want to answer that question because I’m only comfortable talking about other people’s pantomimes instead of owning my own.”
(I hope you’re still having fun, JZ. I promise, I am wwaaaaaaaaay more stubborn than you.) Let me know if you just want me to start LOL ing! 🙂
Let me answer it for you:
”No, withholding information from my children doesn’t result in people being murdered, or thousands of years of slavery, or pointless animal sacrifice. If it did, MY ACTIONS would be thoroughly unethical.”
LOL!
Why don’t you list the 10 things every parent should tell all children?
Word of advice, Amanda
In the future, do try to think your positions (and your arguments) through a little more carefully.
A little actual thought might save you future embarrassment.
Goodnight.
Can you list the ten things all parents should tell their children, so they’re not “withholding” important information? Yes or no?
You can’t list 10 rules better than the ones the “Middle-Eastern god” gave his children.
Word of advice, JZ.
In the future, do try to think your positions (and your arguments) through a little more carefully. A little actual thought MIGHT save you future embarrassment.
Also, stop being so paranoid. That will help, too.
Sleep tight, sweetie!
Don’t you think the Zande Dance is more fun than just reading the Zande gibberish?
Oh my goodness! He is really improving his skills!
Teach him to twirl next!
Amd you have to answer my question
is Yhwh’s behaviour ethical?
I’M NOT ANSWERING ANY MORE QUESTIONS FROM YOU.
Stop replying twice and splitting threads.
It’s bad etiquette.
Please just answer the question put to you without the typical Branyan ONE-HUNDRED-COMMENT-DIVERSION-SONG-AND-DANCE.
Can you do that?
Is it within your capabilities?
Please.
As you laid it out, is Yhwh’s behaviour (keeping secrets as to what is actually right and what is actually wrong) ethical?
Jz,
The biblical god only determines right and wrong, moral and immoral by what he thinks at the time. It’s completely arbitrary and according to DCT. To make it more difficult, often times what his moral standard is for us is not a moral standard for him and equally, what he says is immoral and evil for us is perfectly acceptable for him. It really depends on how he happens to feel or want to act that particular day.
Arbitrary and capricious. He is god and can do as he wishes. You see, the biblical god and Allister Crowley have a lot in common. For those less well read and unfamiliar, Crowley said this…((“Do what thou wilt” shall be the whole of the law))
Only difference is that the Biblical God sequester this ‘freedom’ for himself alone. We on the other hand are at his whim to determine what is moral or not depending on the direction of his mood.
Insanity is hearing voices that tell you to take your son up to the mountains and kill him… or kill the inhabitants of the next town over.
Or you’re just a Biblical Christian ‘hearing’ gods Divine Command
Sidenote: Did you notice that JZ’s pantomime, Yhwh, has evolved from the “Middle Eastern god” to the “god of Christianity?”
Why won’t any of these Atheists call God “Frank,” like I plainly requested multiple times?
If you can find such a translation of the Hebraic form for god/YHWh from a recognized biblical scholar that has been verified, then maybe we would consider the name ”Frank”.
Other side note:
Did you hear something?
Must have been the wind…
I know JB doesn’t like when the comment section gets THIS long, without any productive dialog.
But, oh man, I’ve been enjoying this circus.
LOL!
Yes.
The comments are riveting today.
Super interesting! Thanks to John Zande for his always stimulating contributions.
No problem.
The question still stands…
How can there be an Objective Moral Truth when the source of this Objectivity (according to you, that is) changes its mind?
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y336/johnzande/GOD%20CHANGES_zpsmmmoyd6x.jpg
That’s not the question!
LOLOLOLOL
Yes, it is.
No it’s not!
LOLOLOLOL!
The question is: “If there is no objective truth, why do you say religious indoctrination is wrong?”
That is the question.
Where have I ever said that?
Okay, so you don’t want to address the actual question.
It’s awkward, I understand.
Yeah, just ignore JZ’s little 50-comment sideshow. That’s not really the important thing, anyway!
LOL!!!
LOLOLOLOL!
Yes. Ignore his stupid paranoia. Now, WHAT ABOUT GOD CHANGING HIS MIND!!?
I’ve already explained to him that having an “objective” goal isn’t the same as “never changing your mind.”
It was such a good answer that he admitted his real problem is that God doesn’t behave exactly as JZ thinks he should–not that a God who changes his mind isn’t objective. (Because He can be. And is.)
Aaaaaawkward.
Gasp! You mean the Windbag is pretending like he hasn’t heard an answer to his question?
You mean… He’s pantomiming!??!
Gasp! Gasp! Gasp!
Meh. I’m not surprised.
He does that all the time.
I’ve actually read some very thoughtful Theist comments ON HIS BLOG in the past. (Back when he actually blogged.)
When he gets a good, consistent answer, he simply finds another Theist to ask the exact same series of questions. 🙂
But, I think you should stop talking to him now. He’s just trying to pad them comments so people can’t see his stupid mistake.
Ok.
Let him know you’re not commenting anymore, so as not to bury his epic meltdown. 🙂
Yes, what about it?
It’s your belief, so why are you finding it so hard to address it?
To repeat the orginal comment:
Yes, at one earth atmosphere water will boil at 100 degrees and freeze at 0.
But how can you have an Objective Moral Truth when your particular Middle Eastern god, the god of Christianity, Yhwh, changes its mind on matters of what is right and what is wrong?
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y336/johnzande/GOD%20CHANGES_zpsmmmoyd6x.jpg
It’s not my belief! It’s YOUR belief!
LOLOLOLOL!
I deconverted!
You keep forgetting.
LOLOLOLOL!
You’re hilarious!
Ah, so you don’t believe in the god of Christianity, Yhwh.
Ok, got it.
Thanks.
Interesting? Not the word I would use. This John Zander is a real piece of work. Fancies himself an intellectual yet soils himself on Christian blogs all over the internet I can’t think of one reason anyone should take him seriously.
Fun diversion I suppose and good for showing readers what an atheist assbag is like but overall, he seems like a waste of time.
Robert
Totally agree.
So why are you still a Christian if you value the truth?
Testing, testing.
Here’s the link JZ has tried using twice in today’s thread: http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/johnzande/media/GOD%20CHANGES_zpsmmmoyd6x.jpg.html?t=1487842202
And HERE’s the link he used the other dozen times (when it worked):
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y336/johnzande/GOD%20CHANGES_zpsmmmoyd6x.jpg
Here’s a picture which summarizes JZs computer skills:
http://www.clipartkid.com/images/783/you-ever-get-that-i-don-t-know-what-to-do-or-i-don-t-know-BEnlLI-clipart.jpg
You are simply replacing the word ‘reality’ for ‘Absolute, objective truth’ in order to make wiggle room for you to insert an unnecessary and nebulous confusing agency you call ‘God’.
You are simply stating your subjective opinion. It is not objectively true.
Yes, at one earth atmosphere water will boil at 100 degrees and freeze at 0.
But how can you have an Objective Moral Truth when your particular Middle Eastern god, the god of Christianity, Yhwh, changes its mind on matters of what is right and what is wrong?
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y336/johnzande/GOD%20CHANGES_zpsmmmoyd6x.jpg?t=1487842202
Consequences change. The end-goal doesn’t. I know you read this comment and pretended like you didn’t:
https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2017/03/02/philosophy-of-slugs/comment-page-1/#comment-16020
Ah, a hidden, secret end goal, is it?
I see.
So we just have to “guess” as to what is right and what is wrong (in the mind of Yhwh) at any given minute in any give day.
Got it.
(Why isn’t the picture showing? Are you censoring comments?)
Having an objective goal doesn’t mean your strategy stays the same through the whole campaign.
The problem with naturalism is that it denies there can be a “goal” outside human opinion at all…
Knowing the goal helps you not have to “guess” quite so much as you imply.
And I have no idea why your picture isn’t showing up. More importantly, I have no idea why you still think it’s relevant.
He hasn’t said why he wrote his book. Remember this!
Yes, I understood you the first time.
Your god, Yhwh, has a secret, hidden, concealed agenda.
According to you, he’s playing games with life, which doesn’t sound very ethical to me, but hey…
There’s no secret. The majority of humans throughout history have recognized the Moral Law.
If you’re struggling to see his guidance literally everywhere, perhaps he’s concealing himself from only you. Maybe God simply doesn’t like you very much. (Can you blame him?) 🙂
The majority of humans throughout history have recognized the Moral Law.
So, the Bible, your own Holy Book, the word of your Christian god, Yhwh, which endorses slavery and the killing of gays was, what, a deliberate ruse?
Understood.
Again, not very ethical, but understood.
Why are you asking loaded questions, like I haven’t answered all of these things perfectly consistently the past? Why haven’t you burned your Bible?
Why do you take drugs?
Why did you write your book?
I didn’t ask a question. I was confirming what you said: Your god, Yhwh, has a secret, hidden, concealed agenda.
According to you, he’s playing games with life, which doesn’t sound very ethical to me, but hey…
So, you’re mad that God didn’t do things the way you think he should? Got it.
Why did you write your book?
I’m not mad, but I would assume those millions of slaves and murdered gays who suffered tremendously over thousands of years might be…
Now, why are you censoring peoples comments?
Why are you mad that God didn’t act like you would?
Why do you take drugs?
As I said: I’m not mad, but I would hazard to guess those millions of slaves and murdered gays who suffered tremendously over thousands of years might be…
Are you done taking drugs yet? Yes or no?
Why isn’t the picture showing?
Are you and John Branyan censoring now?
Why censor?
Nobody is censoring you.
Working on another one of your brilliant conspiracy theories?…
Why did you write your book?
Why isn’t the picture showing then?
Why the censorship?
John Branyan said he would never censor… so why are you beginning now?
Why are you asking the same question I already answered, like you’re on drugs?
Why do you take drugs?
Why did you write your book?
Is censoring a sin?
Why are you censoring comments, John Branyan?
I’m not censoring.
Calm yourself.
Self-evidently, you are.
Why?
You’re not posting pictures.
You’re just accusing me of censoring.
Very clever!
There was a screenshot in the first comment.
It would appear you’ve removed it.
Why?
There are no screenshots!
You’re just lying because you’re pantomime collapsed.
Here, I will try again.
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y336/johnzande/GOD%20CHANGES_zpsmmmoyd6x.jpg?t=1487842202
LOLOLOLO!
You’re not humiliated enough yet?
You want to keep complaining that a fictional God changed his mind?
LOLOLOLOL
You believe the god of Christianity, Yhwh, is the source of the objective moral truth, don’t you?
LOLOLOLOL
I deconverted.
Okay, so you don’t believe in the god of Christianity, Yhwh.
Got it.
Good.
I don’t believe slavery is wrong.
I don’t believe religious indoctrination is wrong.
It makes me laugh when fundamentalists like you claim otherwise.
Yes, I heard you the first time.
You don’t believe the Christian god, Yhwh, exists.
Got it.
See, it doesn’t show.
You’ve imposed a filter or something because you’re sick of your screenshots?
Okay, I get it.
I see it!
Fictional God changed his mind.
LOLOLOLOL
Moron!
I don’t see it.
So, why are you censoring people’s comments?
I see it.
LOLOLOLOL
Are your eyes open?
Is there something between your eyes and the screen?
LOLOLOLOL
I don’t see it.
Can your daughter see it?
LOLOLOLOL
Censoring people’s comments isn’t funny, John Branyan.
It’s rather pathetic, if the truth be told.
LOLOLOLOL
Censoring your comments is hilarious!
Not censoring your comments and watching you freak out about censoring is even funnier!
LOLOLOLOL
So, where is the screenshot of your words?
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Have you looked under the bed?
You’re a clown!
Even if I WAS censoring you, Windbag, what are you gonna say?
It’s ‘wrong’?
It’s ‘evil’?
It’s ‘pathetic’?
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!
Wag your subjective finger, you sad old fundamentalist!
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Okay Xi Jinping, enjoy yourselves in this carefully edited, censored world.
Bwahahahah!
Pantomime collapsed!
Enjoy you carefully constructed world of delusion!
LOLOLOLOL
Did you see that Amanda proved you weren’t being censored?
You gonna apologize or just keep pantomiming?
So, where is it on the first comment?
Hello?
You think I’m going to just ignore your pantomime?
You weren’t being censored.
Amanda proved it.
You grown up enough to say you’re sorry?
So, where is it on the first comment?
Bwahahahah!!
How should I know?
You screwed up the link!
I can test that
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y336/johnzande/GOD%20CHANGES_zpsmmmoyd6x.jpg?t=1487842202
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y336/johnzande/GOD%20CHANGES_BRANYAN_1_zpsjjj7wvsx.jpg?t=1487841676
LOL!!!!
The first one is just a link.
The second is an embedded photo.
Are you blind?
No, i’ve used that to post that screenshot many times.
No, you haven’t.
I’ve looked back through the comments, and every other time you’ve posted the link, it’s the direct one–not the IM/email one.
You’re wrong.
And you’re not going to own it. Which makes laughing at you even more fun.
LOL!!!!
Okay, there it is…
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y336/johnzande/GOD%20CHANGES_zpsmmmoyd6x.jpg
And it still doesn’t prove any point.
Congrats!
Let me try this
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y336/johnzande/GOD%20CHANGES_zpsmmmoyd6x.jpg
Nope, both failed, Xi Jinping
Ah, OK, second one worked (it went to moderation)
Odd about the first one as I’ve posted that here on your blog multiple times.
Again–you have not posted the Email/IM link before.
You are wrong.
You copied a different link than usual and made a mistake.
LOL!
He has lost his mind.
Can you see the screenshot?
I can’t.
Why do you assume WE’RE responsible for something that happened with YOUR picture?
Why do you take drugs?
Why did you write your book?
So, where is the screenshot in the first comment?
Why the censorship?
Censoring people’s comments is so cheap. It’s what Colourstorm does.
You shouldn’t take drugs.
Can you see the screenshot in the first comment, yes or no?
Can you understand that neither my dad nor I did anything to prevent your photo from showing up in that comment?
Yes or no?
When are you going to stop taking drugs?
Honestly, I can’t say that.
The screenshot was posted (i can even see the link), but the picture doesn’t show.
That means you’re censoring it, doesn’t it?
“That means you’re censoring it, doesn’t it?”
No. It means you’re on drugs, doesn’t it?
So, where is it on the first comment?
What first comment?
You’ve posted a link twice today. And both times, you used the “IM/Email link” from photobucket, instead of the “direct” link that you’ve used every other time you’ve posted a link here.
That means you’ve been blaming us for YOUR stupid mistake, all day.
Are you going to own it?
(Note: I will be laughing at you for a long time over this, whether you own it or not. So it’s completely up to you whether you’d like to admit you deserve it.)
Hey, Einstein…
I’m back from church now, so I had a chance to solve your tech issues for you.
There’s something I think you need to see down thread.
LOL!!!!
I don’t think he’s going to apologize for his false accusations.
Very intellectual.
Aw, don’t make him apologize! Paranoid JZ is my favorite JZ. 🙂
Also, making false accusations isn’t objectively wrong…
I know. Lying is fine with me since I deconverted.
I just thought JZ would want to acknowledge the evidence because it’s supposedly important to him.
You think maybe he doesn’t actually care about truth?
No, I just think JZ’s “truth” looks exactly like most people’s “lying.”
😉
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y336/johnzande/GOD%20CHANGES_zpsmmmoyd6x.jpg?t=1487842202
Why did you write your book?
Hello?
You still have no answer?
Why did you write your book?
Your pantomime is collapsed.
Why did you write your book?
Why did I write my book? To demonstrate the failure of all ID arguments by holding up an actual mirror to natural theology. As an aside, it was also the longest working example, to-date, of Poe’s Law, but that is sophisticated humour, so that element of it is well beyond your capabilities to understand.
Why do you ask?
Wrong.
The correct answer is, “I did not write the book. It is an inevitable product of the determined universe.”
No Zande, God does not change His mind.
Malachi 3:6 declares, “I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.” Similarly, James 1:17 tells us, “Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.” Numbers 23:19 is clear: “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?” Based on these verses, no, God does not change. God is unchanging and unchangeable. He is also all-wise. So He cannot “change His mind” in the sense of realizing a mistake, backtracking, and trying a new tack.
If you want to argue against Christianity, you might want to make sure you understand it first.
For the record, Robert: JB said that God changed his mind–thinking of the conversation with Abraham about how many righteous people he’d need to find to save the city of Sodom.
It led to an interesting conversation in the comment section of the post titled “Philosophy of Slugs.”
(And, bonus: the conversation was mostly with Believers and therefore wasn’t bogged down by half-wit trolls.) 🙂
This doesn’t seem like it is going to go in the right place so I hope there is no confusion.
Fair enough Amanda but did God really change His mind in Hen 18:23-33?
Let’s put it this way. The story indicates that with intercession and/or change, God will make a change in an announced plan. But if God is omniscient, then He knew in advance what Abraham would ask for — and knew also what the end result would be. (Note that God asks, clearly rhetorically [18:17], whether He should tell Abraham what His plans are, and that the number of possible righteous goes only to 10 — the next logical increment, 5, would have been less than the number of Lot’s family of 6: Lot, his wife, his two daughters, and their prospective grooms. In essence Abraham is pleading for Lot’s safety here.)
God dealt with Abraham in human terms for his own sake; but even before the conversation started, the matter was decided. God did not change nor compromise, but in fact, in feigning ignorance (v. 21), dropped a very strong hint that intercession on Abraham’s part was desired.
This incident was more than a typical barter-exchange, then: It was also a tone-setting meeting laying down the terms upon which God would relate to His covenant people. He knew what they would do; but He also wanted them to come to Him in their need.
Again, Zande seems rather I’ll equipped to debate anyone on Christianity when he seems to barely understand it.
I appreciate the thoughts. And I understand, the views expressed here aren’t standard Christianity. (I get accused of being a “Deist” rather than a “True Christian” all the time by The Trolls. Whatever. Labels aren’t that important to me.)
But, my question regarding God’s omniscience is: could it be possible he intentionally limits his knowledge, for our sake? Does he ALLOW himself to be surprised by us?
I’m not 100% sure God always knows what the end-result will be. What if he has multiple plans, but he actually ENJOYS figuring out which people will cooperate with him, and which ones will decline? (As JB said to Dave in the other thread, didn’t Mordecai tell Esther, “If you remain silent, relief and deliverance will rise from another place.”)
It just seems to me, the only alternative to humans being allowed to change God’s mind is the same problem the Atheists run into: determinism. (Except it’s Divine Determinism rather than the mindless kind.) In that case, though it may feel like we make choices, we can’t really have free-will. If God already knows all of the choices we’re going to make, we’re just going through all the pre-planned motions. And I’m not sure what the point of that would be…
I certainly could be wrong. But those have been my thoughts lately. 🙂
I agree Robert
According to Christian scripture, Yhwh does not change his mind.
This, however, is not what John Branyan thinks.
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y336/johnzande/GOD%20CHANGES_zpsmmmoyd6x.jpg
So, perhaps your critique should be addressed to him?
Thank God your quote is showing up!
I actually wrote a whole article about how God can change His mind without reducing His ‘godliness’.
There were some people who agreed with me.
There were some people who disagreed with me.
You opted to stay out of the conversation, Windbag. And that made the conversation so much better!
Robert’s not criticizing your views on Yhwh.
Robert is criticizing you for being an assclown.