I’m sensing the need to clarify my perspective on the subject of “shame”. When I wrote about it last time, some people contacted me and expressed confusion about what I was actually trying to say.
One person sent me a link to this article. I agree with most of the points but especially with the notion that “definitions matter.” They do indeed.
Defining words is America’s new favorite pastime. Endless talk about what we mean by “shame” and “guilt” has replaced the more important conversation about how to deal with shame and guilt.
Knickers get knotted when I use the word shame instead of guilt. Shame (so I’m told) is feeling bad about “who you are”. Guilt is (so I’m told) feeling bad about what you do. Conflating these two concepts leads (so I’m told) to utter despair. Using shame and guilt interchangeably destroys the self-esteem of innocent children and pushes people away from the loving arms of Jesus (so I’m told).
So I need to clarify. I do not understand the word “shame” to mean – “A condition of bleak wretchedness from which there is no hope of escape.” To clarify further, I don’t think ANYBODY understands “shame” that way.
My mother, in moments of exasperated passion, would sometimes say, “John, you should be ashamed!” I’m quite certain she wasn’t making a permanent judgment on the status of my value as a person. She was encouraging me to change my behavior.
Drawing a distinction between “what you do” and “who you are” is hair-splitting. It serves no purpose other than to ease the consciences of people who don’t want to face up to their sins. One of the most spectacular lies you can tell yourself is, “I make mistakes but I’m still a good person.”
What you do determines who you are. Your character is defined by your actions, not your intentions.
Recently, Bernie Sanders remarked that one of the first things Fidel Castro did when he came to power in Cuba was start a literacy program. Castro taught people to read when he wasn’t exiling, imprisoning, and murdering them! Nobody (except demented old socialists and brain-dead atheists) would say Castro was a good person who made a few mistakes. My mother would say, “Castro! You should be ashamed.”
If you feel icky about what you’re doing, it’s possible you’re experiencing “shame”. Rather than redefining it so you can ignore it, I suggest you stop doing the thing you’re doing. If you feel better, then don’t do that thing anymore.
Then, thank God for your conscience.
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.
Romans 2:14
31 Responses
From my perspective, I would say “guilt” is the inward representation of how we feel/think about ourselves when we have behaved wrongly. I would say “shame” is the inward representation of how we feel others will feel/think about us when we have behaved wrongly.
so, if I don’t feel bad, I am not bad, and my conscience is the key.
now, as soon as you show your version of your god created that conscience we’ll be doing good.
You’re an atheist.
You can’t speak rationally about “good” or “bad”.
and here we go again. You’re a Christian who disagrees with other Christians on what “good” and “bad” are, so exactly how can you address those things when no god shows us that you are his chosen one?
again, I can speak rationally about good and bad, and I don’t need to pretend a magical being agrees with only me about those things and that anything this being does is good simply because of what it is.
and JB, you said it was all about feeling. Then no rationality is needed at all. This supposedly god given conscience tells me I’m perfectly okay.
Wonderful! You’re perfectly okay!
Why are you commenting here?
“Wonderful! You’re perfectly okay!
Why are you commenting here?” – JB
happily pointing out that the claims of theists that atheists are unhappy, lonely, etc are entirely shown to be false by JB.
Wonderful!
That is subjectively true for you.
“Wonderful!
That is subjectively true for you.” – JB
Oh, really? So this isn’t true at all?
“If you feel icky about what you’re doing, it’s possible you’re experiencing “shame”. Rather than redefining it so you can ignore it, I suggest you stop doing the thing you’re doing. If you feel better, then don’t do that thing anymore.
Then, thank God for your conscience.”
darn.
You are the advocate for subjective truth.
I am not.
So everything you say isn’t true at all.
darn.
“You are the advocate for subjective truth.
I am not.
So everything you say isn’t true at all.
darn.” – JB
No, not really. If your claim is true, then I’m not subjectively “good” or anything like that, JB. Your god’s gift of a conscience tells me I’m good.
Or doesn’t that work if someone is an atheist?
Lol
You’re claiming to have a conscience from a god that you don’t believe exists?
Fabulous!
This is why I love having you comment here.
“Lol
You’re claiming to have a conscience from a god that you don’t believe exists?
Fabulous!
This is why I love having you comment here.”
So which is true, JB, your claim “If you feel icky about what you’re doing, it’s possible you’re experiencing “shame”. Rather than redefining it so you can ignore it, I suggest you stop doing the thing you’re doing. If you feel better, then don’t do that thing anymore.
Then, thank God for your conscience.”
or mine that there is no god. Am I a good person as an atheist thanks to my supposely god given conscience tells me so? Or doesn’t this conscience work as you described?
You’re not a good person.
There are no good people. Everyone sins and falls short of God’s glory.
And, again, for the millionth time…
Subjective truth doesn’t allow you to speak coherently about “good” and “bad”. By all means, keep ignoring this and just yammer at me about conscience.
“You can’t reference “right” or “wrong” either.
You also can’t accuse me of “false”.
Enjoy your subjective truth!” – JB
alsa for you, reality doesn’t care what JB tries to decree.
Alas for you, reality doesn’t care what you decree either.
If there is no “truth”, how can anything be “false”?
“Alas for you, reality doesn’t care what you decree either.
If there is no “truth”, how can anything be “false” – jb
I never said that there was no truth. That’s something you made up.
I’ve said that you have no truth in your version of your religion.
Is there absolute truth?
“Is there absolute truth?” -JB
Yep, and you don’t have it. All theists love to lcaim that they and they alone have the “absolute truth”. Terribly sad that none of you can show this to be true. The last refuge of a theist is nonsense claims that end up with solipsism.
If you want to claim there isn’t an objective truth, then I do ask you to put your bare hand in molten steel.
To be clear, you are now a believer in the existence of objective truth?
“To be clear, you are now a believer in the existence of objective truth? – JB
I always have been. I know that your lies aren’t objectively true and I happily point them out. Again, dear if you want to claim the universe isn’t based on objective truth, do place your bare hand in molten steel. If you aren’t willing to, you are agreeing with me that there are some objectively true things.
The problem for JB is that his beliefs aren’t based on objective reality and he only makes up what he wants to claim as objective morality that comes from his god just like every other Christian. He can’t show that his version of his god agrees with him at all. No Christian, indeed, no theist, can. That leads to some very funny problems with theism including watching them contradict each other and insisting falsely that they have the one “right” answer.
For example, he wants to claim that if I feel good about what I do, then I must be doing good per the “god-given” conscience he wants to claim exists. This means me, an atheist, is doing good in what i believe in and what I do and that his god agrees with me. If this god-given conscience didn’t agree with me, I wouldn’t feel good.
But JB is stuck with a god that doesn’t agree with him if his claim is true. That’s awkward. It could explain why JB can’t do what baptized believers in Christ as savior can do, and show that he is just one false claimant among billions.
Glad you’re perfectly okay!
“Glad you’re perfectly okay!” JB
Ah, I see that you didn’t get the answer you wanted to your question “To be clear, you are now a believer in the existence of objective truth?”
You should respond to the article I wrote about being bored with talk about atheism. I’m glad you’re perfectly okay.
“You should respond to the article I wrote about being bored with talk about atheism. I’m glad you’re perfectly okay.” – JB
I did. That post was quite the amazing fail on your end. I do like to see you try to excuse yourself and your behavior.
“You’re not a good person.
There are no good people. Everyone sins and falls short of God’s glory.
And, again, for the millionth time…
Subjective truth doesn’t allow you to speak coherently about “good” and “bad”. By all means, keep ignoring this and just yammer at me about conscience.” – JB
Oh, so this claim of yours is entirely wrong since it contradicts what you are saying now: “If you feel icky about what you’re doing, it’s possible you’re experiencing “shame”. Rather than redefining it so you can ignore it, I suggest you stop doing the thing you’re doing. If you feel better, then don’t do that thing anymore.
Then, thank God for your conscience.”
You can repeat a false claim for more than a milion times, JB. I can and have spoken coherently about good and bad. Since, Christians don’t agree on what good and bad is, exactly why should we believe your version?
You can’t reference “right” or “wrong” either.
You also can’t accuse me of “false”.
Enjoy your subjective truth!
To quote an old song Shackled by a heavy burden Neath a load of guilt and Then the hand of Jesus touched me and now I am no longer the same. Shame h
as a proper place and it is to my benefit to heed it.
I think the same distinction lie with the word “judgement”. When people say “don’t judge”, they mean it to say “don’t discern that this is right or wrong” and refer to Jesus as commanding that we not judge. But I think it’s like you say “don’t condemn to hopelessness”
Can I hire you to tell this to people in my life? When I say it, they look at me like I have 3 heads and should be in an asylum.
I don’t think you’re familiar with how people look at John ^_^